# Rumsfeld: Don’t tell Junior! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022 "2004-05-07T15:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/21 "2004-05-08T00:56:41Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > The top military official in the pentagon, Richard Myers, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, might reasonably object to your description of him **kaylasdad99**. Touche. Still, he’s lower-echelon than the Cabinet member. That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/22 "2004-05-08T01:08:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it. Good on you **kaylasdad99** for that decisive response! America despises flip-floppers, and you sir are no flip-flopper. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/23 "2004-05-08T01:51:47Z")
What the hell does Rumsfeld do if they don’t have enough initiative to find out what the fuck goes on under their watch? Rumsfeld heard about these abuse allegations back in January, did he even lift a finger to investigate them? :mad: ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/24 "2004-05-08T01:56:04Z")
I don’t think President Bush has a clue. In his last press conference he explicitly claimed that despite the failure to establish order in parts of Iraq, and to find weapons of mass destruction; at least we put an end to Saddam’s “torture chambers and rape rooms”. Now we know our folks just put them under new management. I don’t have a great deal of confidence in John Kerry at this point. But I am conviced that our current president in not in control. I really don’t think he is a bad person, nor truly stupid. I am a Texn, and I generally thought hed did a fine job as governor. But no way in hell will I, or anyone I know (this is my Pauline Kael moment) vote for him at this point. He is leading us to ruin. Kerry can win this thing if Nader doesn’t get more than one per cent. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/25 "2004-05-08T01:58:38Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > I really don’t think he is a bad person, nor truly stupid. I am a Texn… . …of course I am hardly one to judge communication skills. Don’t drink and post. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/26 "2004-05-08T02:26:14Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m okay with believing Dubya never saw the pictures until they appeared on TV. > > I’m not quite sure whether the decision to keep them from him was made by Cheney or Rove. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t made by Rumsfeld, although I don’t believe for a minute that Rumsfeld had never seen them. I can’t believe that Bush didn’t know about the pictures. I’m not a fan of the man but he runs an _extremely_ tight organization. That isn’t a slam, by the way, just an observation. He hasn’t been plagued by the kinds of leaks and careless snafus per Clinton, for example. Even without that tight an organization, it simply isn’t how goverment runs, on any level. First law for long-term survival: _never_ let Da Big Boss find out problems from outsiders. Politicos loathe suprises, much less getting outright sandbagged. They may be unhappy with a problem but it’s fatal to let them be caught unawares, flatfooted, pants down, no spin prepared. That said, there’s also a fine old govermental tradition of taking the fall for Da Big Boss. Any underling is a potential scapegoat. That’s just the way of it. A high level functionary will take the public blame, but will be actually fired only as a last resort. You can gauge the distance from power–and actual responsiblity–by the ease of firing. Those possessing the fewest awkward facts and details will be the first to actually get clobbered with firing, prosecution, etc. Business as usual. Nasty business, but purely routine in how it’s being handled. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/27 "2004-05-08T02:44:14Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > **friedo** , Bush’s claiming that he didn’t know was the perfect way to announce that he is not in control of the administration, even if he did know. I think it’s absurd that any top dog would want to claim cluelessness about anything that happens on his watch. You can’t take heat from something you didn’t know about. You simply direct the heat to underlings. There really isn’t any heat from him appearing to be in the dark about issues he _should_ know about. A couple of sqawks that will die out quickly. So, yeah, he knew about it a long time before the news media did. ---
**Author:** ![SpectBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@SpectBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpectBrain)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/28 "2004-05-08T02:52:48Z")
To paraphrase the opening of Mission Impossible If you’re caught the secretary will disavow any knowledge of you mission. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/29 "2004-05-08T02:58:45Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > You can’t take heat from something you didn’t know about. [See no evil, hear no evil](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/politics/08ASSE.html) > [@](#): > > Mr. McClellan said that Mr. Bush had not watched the secretary’s performance on the flat-screen television aboard the presidential bus, but that he been updated “a few times” by his staff. > “He’s heard he’s done a good job and appreciates Secretary Rumsfeld keeping Congress informed about the steps being taken to keep something like this from happening again and holding those responsible accountable,” Mr. McClellan said. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/30 "2004-05-08T03:30:23Z")
My theory is that President Bush was given a report on the torture situation but decided not to actually read it because it was longer than 2 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/31 "2004-05-08T04:30:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I think another possible explanation that’s been overlooked is that GWB was aware of the issue earlier, but Rummy was willing to take the PR hit and pretend he never said anything, so GWB would remain innocent in the eyes of the public. Uh, it’s pretty undisputed that bush DID know earlier: about the abuse at least. He may not have seen the photos, but he was told about the investigation and the allegations of abuse. It’s not clear whether or not he was told that there were photos. But that’s a matter of being shocked at bad PR for himself, not being shocked by the allegations: which were not new to his ears. > [@](#): > > My theory is that President Bush was given a report on the torture situation but decided not to actually read it because it was longer than 2 pages. It’s not Bush’s fault. He’s just a bad CEO: blame the stockholders. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/32 "2004-05-08T07:19:27Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > I can’t believe that Bush didn’t know about the pictures. I’m not a fan of the man but he runs an _extremely_ tight organization. > > \ > > First law for long-term survival: _never_ let Da Big Boss find out problems from outsiders. > > \ > That said, there’s also a fine old govermental tradition of taking the fall for Da Big Boss. > > \ > > Business as usual. > Nasty business, but purely routine in how it’s being handled. Good points all, **TVeblen** , but I think you misunderstand me. I’m not saying I believe “Da Big Boss” was unaware of the pictures. I’m saying I believe Dubya is a sock, and not the _real_ “Da Big Boss” at all. Agreed, even with him as the beard, sandbagging, pantslessness, and flat-footedness has befallen this administration. I have no doubt that events will move forward pretty much in line with your prognosis. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/33 "2004-05-08T08:10:12Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > I don’t think President Bush has a clue. In his last press conference he explicitly claimed that despite the failure to establish order in parts of Iraq, and to find weapons of mass destruction; at least we put an end to Saddam’s “torture chambers and rape rooms”. Now we know our folks just put them under new management. I forgot who first mentioned this, but when the US forces took control of Baghdad, we made a big show of renaming the various locations to signify the change in Iraq – “Saddam International Airport” became “Baghdad International Airport,” the “Saddam Mosque” was renamed to “The _Al Rahman_ mosque,” etc. …except for Abu Ghurayb. _That_ prison, we left alone. Didn’t even bother to board up the place, much less tear it down. And people wondered why the Iraqis didn’t believe us when we said we were there to liberate them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/34 "2004-05-08T12:27:10Z")
> [@Veb](#): > > First law for long-term survival: never let Da Big Boss find out problems from outsiders. Politicos loathe suprises, much less getting outright sandbagged. True, but it is entirely possible that Rumsfeld, owing to his almost psychotic disconnect with reality, looked at the pictures and had a giggle over them. He honestly might not have grasped their moral significance. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/35 "2004-05-08T14:18:45Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Nah…much as I’d like to kick GWB with this, I think there’s a simpler explanation. Rumsfield and Co. thought they could bury it internally. They failed, GWB is now pissed, and Rummy is in serious hot water. This is the least damning explanation. But even then you have to worry about a president who would bring in somebody as deluded as Rumsfeld and then stick by him so steadfastly. You can _almost_ admire his loyalty; but the ability to make key personnel decisions is kind of important, particularly for a president, no? And his personnel decisions seem to be to drive out his best people (because their not his buddies) and keep his least talented (because they are). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/36 "2004-05-08T17:14:51Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > …except for Abu Ghurayb. _That_ prison, we left alone. Didn’t even bother to board up the place, much less tear it down. > > And people wondered why the Iraqis didn’t believe us when we said we were there to liberate them. Compare that to the first tangible action during the French Revolution, the one that made the people really feel they had taken control of their own country and their own future: They tore down the Bastille. If the end of the USSR had been more chaotic, I don’t doubt that the Lubyanka would be a vacant lot now, either. But we haven’t let the Iraqis, other than the Kurds who’ve been functionally independent for years, do anything to give themselves a sense of nationhood - except perhaps to unite in driving out the foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/37 "2004-05-09T06:13:08Z")
> [@](#): > > He hasn’t been plagued by the kinds of leaks Dunno about that. While I agree that they run an administration that is very HOSTILE to leaks or criticism from loyal internal soldiers, three have been leaks aplenty. Heck, someone leaked hundreds of pages of documents for Suskind’s book. Someone leaked the memo in which the FBI basically has the facts of evidence to convict Karl Rove of wrongdoing in the Palme affair, and wasn’t sure how to proceed given how political indicting him might be. These photos are leaks (possibly from the defense lawyer of one of the six men currently facing charges). There are leaks all over the place and always have been. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/38 "2004-05-09T06:37:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Compare that to the first tangible action during the French Revolution, the one that made the people really feel they had taken control of their own country and their own future: They tore down the Bastille. If the end of the USSR had been more chaotic, I don’t doubt that the Lubyanka would be a vacant lot now, either. It’s worse than that. It got looted and stripped after the invasion. We fixed it up again to use as a prison, so it’s more like the French revolutionaries rebuilding the Bastille. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/39 "2004-05-09T06:43:11Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > This is the least damning explanation. But even then you have to worry about a president who would bring in somebody as deluded as Rumsfeld and then stick by him so steadfastly. You can _almost_ admire his loyalty; but the ability to make key personnel decisions is kind of important, particularly for a president, no? And his personnel decisions seem to be to drive out his best people (because their not his buddies) and keep his least talented (because they are). Remember the International Red Cross reported abuses **last year**. I actually believe Bush didn’t know - he has made it very clear he doesn’t want to get a lot of information, and who would have the guts to bother the boss with something like this. It’s not like he’s going to snoop around asking questions, after all. They’ve got such a mindset of the inner crowd can do no wrong that Rummy won’t be asked to resign until the polls say so - which they don’t yet. (The latest ABC poll showed relatively small support for him resigning.) If Bush were a real leader, any underling who would not tell him about this bomb would be out in a minute. Maybe Cheney is preventing Bush from firing him? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/40 "2004-05-09T09:55:37Z")
Junior knew about and approved of the _torture_, because Powell told him about it. Bush’s only concern was the _photographs_, which Rumsfeld may or may not have told Junior about. Bush probably fobbed Powell off with one of his little down-home Texan sayings, like “can’t make omelets without fucking a few 12 year old boys up the ass”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022.md?page=3)