# Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, Yoo etc., might be prosecuted for war crimes -- in a German court **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315 "2006-11-06T17:19:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/41 "2006-11-08T04:46:53Z")
Universal jurisdiction may be one of the worst ideas in history. Any state saying that it can classify certain crimes as under its jurisdiction no matter where they happen anywhere in the world is a huge violation of state sovereignty and also opens a terrible can of worms. We’ve had some mild success in establishing international courts to deal with international crimes, although we still have a long way to go; and I think the scope of said courts should **always** be extremely limited. If the defendant’s crimes are also crimes in their home jurisdiction and their home jurisdiction has made a good-faith investigation or attempt to prosecute for said crimes the international court should never have jurisdiction or right to prosecute. I think international tribunals or courts are the better way to deal with issues like war crimes, or crimes against humanity, in many cases of said crimes they can’t be left up to the state in question because they may have been technically legal under the laws of that state which of course were written and distorted by whoever was in power. But one state should never try to conduct criminal prosecutions concerning things that it has no normal jurisdiction over. Also, for the record, the Nuremberg trials had nothing to do with “universal jurisdiction.” Up until 1949 (or technically 1955) the allied powers were the proper governing authorities in Germany and thus the persons tried at Nuremberg were under their actual jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/42 "2006-11-08T04:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Universal jurisdiction may be one of the worst ideas in history. Any state saying that it can classify certain crimes as under its jurisdiction no matter where they happen anywhere in the world is a huge violation of state sovereignty and also opens a terrible can of worms. [/QUOTE] And what would be the downside of that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/43 "2006-11-08T04:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And what would be the downside of that? [/QUOTE] War. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/44 "2006-11-08T05:11:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And what would be the downside of that? [/QUOTE] By which you mean that you have no problem with Iran or Sudan convening a court to prosecute the Massachusetts judiciary for establishing a right to homosexual marriage in that state? Or perhaps they could simply try, _in absentia_, all the managers, editors, and officers of any corporation that chose to publish The Satanic Verses? You’re right. There appears to be no downside to individual nations choosing to extend their law to anyone in the world that offends them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/45 "2006-11-08T05:16:46Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] War. [/QUOTE] Touche. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/46 "2006-11-08T05:19:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Touche. [/QUOTE] Reminds me of the Apple commercial where the Windows guy keeps saying ‘touche’… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/47 "2006-11-08T05:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] By which you mean that you have no problem with Iran or Sudan convening a court to prosecute the Massachusetts judiciary for establishing a right to homosexual marriage in that state? Or perhaps they could simply try, _in absentia_, all the managers, editors, and officers of any corporation that chose to publish The Satanic Verses? [/QUOTE] Now you’re offering arguments in support. All that would be difficult and complicated — but oh, so much FUN! 😃 But, assuming the forces of traditional morality would, in the long run, lose, as they deserve to lose – – do you have any good reason to expect they wouldn’t? Or shouldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/48 "2006-11-08T06:20:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Touche. [/QUOTE] I honestly didn’t see any other way of reading **Martin** ’s post. War is, of course, the biggest downside, but you would introduce an isolating element into internationaly relations that would set us back perhaps 2,000 years. Government officials would be concerned about traveling to other countries, and these types of actions would generate reactions in the targeted countries that could easily escalate to war. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/49 "2006-11-08T14:55:48Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] “Might makes right,” eh, **xtisme?** [/QUOTE] For better or for worse … this is the community of nations in a nutshell. AFAIK, it’s always been that way for humanity, and I can’t see how it would ever change. One of my favorite little personal maxims is that if man somehow ever collectively gives up “might makes right”, we would cease to be _Homo sapiens_. It would then be time to recognize that our species has made some kind of a leap … perhaps we could go with _Homo pacis_ )(apologies for butchering the Latin). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/50 "2006-11-08T21:53:34Z")
One of the biggest advances in society was the ability to leave office and survive. If we’re going to go back on that, then we’re in a world of hurt. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/51 "2006-11-08T22:13:15Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner] Moderator’s Warning: Both of you knock it off with the personal attacks or take it to the Pit, please. [/QUOTE] I don’t see what I said as a personal attack…unlike rjung’s relentless drive by attacks which strike me as trolling, though doing so in a manner that skirts the letter, if not the spirit of the rules. Telling another poster to put up or shut up (though perhaps telling them to STFU is a bit harsh…I was pretty riled), doesn’t strike me as a personal attack to be honest. Pointing out that the assertion, unless proven is in the other posters head or their own little universe doesn’t seem an attack either. But thats for you guys to decide. For my part, though I don’t feel what I said was a personal attack, I will certainly knock it off…and apologize, though in this case not to rjung. I apologize for breaking the rules, pissing off the mods and for hijacking this thread. -XT ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/52 "2006-11-08T22:24:40Z")
An [update](http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/11/08/warcrimes/index.html): > [@](#): > > Donald Rumsfeld may be looking forward to living out his golden years at his vacation home on the Eastern Shore, but lawyers who represent detainees at Guantánamo Bay have other ideas. In a message just sent to reporters, they say they intend to file war crimes charges against Rumsfeld next week in Germany, arguing that his departure from the Department of Defense means that he’s no longer entitled to immunity from prosecution. > > It won’t be the first time lawyers at the Center for Constitutional Rights have tried to persuade German authorities to prosecute Rumsfeld for war crimes. They tried in 2004 – the subject then was Abu Ghraib – but German officials declined to pursue the matter because, they said, the United States was investigating on its own. Still, it’s clear that Rumsfeld took the prospect of prosecution at least a little bit seriously at the time. Before German prosecutors announced they wouldn’t be taking up the case, Rumsfeld said he’d have to think twice about whether he could take the risk of traveling to Germany for a meeting there. > > CCR lawyers say that, under Rumsfeld’s direction, the Department of Defense has “adopted the practices of torture and indefinite detention” that they’re challenging in a number of other cases. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/53 "2006-11-08T22:33:36Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] One of the biggest advances in society was the ability to leave office and survive. If we’re going to go back on that, then we’re in a world of hurt. [/QUOTE] That principle does not require extending complete criminal immunity to officeholders for their actions while in office. Pols wind up in jail all the time, it’s nothing new. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/54 "2006-11-08T23:50:15Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] For better or for worse … this is the community of nations in a nutshell. AFAIK, it’s always been that way for humanity, and I can’t see how it would ever change. [/quote] Isn’t the whole “raise yourself better than your base instincts” the whole point of civilization? Just because we’ve got our lizard hindbrains giving us brutish instincts to boink everything in sight and fight anything else doesn’t mean we should just go ahead and _do_ it. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/55 "2006-11-09T00:05:47Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Isn’t the whole “raise yourself better than your base instincts” the whole point of civilization? Just because we’ve got our lizard hindbrains giving us brutish instincts to boink everything in sight and fight anything else doesn’t mean we should just go ahead and _do_ it. [/QUOTE] Basic difference in philosophy between you and I – I don’t believe humanity taken _in toto_ can do better. You have hope … which is admirable (not meant sarcastically). ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/56 "2006-11-09T18:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Isn’t the whole “raise yourself better than your base instincts” the whole point of civilization? Just because we’ve got our lizard hindbrains giving us brutish instincts to boink everything in sight and fight anything else doesn’t mean we should just go ahead and do it. For some reason, a pack of humans operate differently than the way that the individual humans that make up the pack might operate. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/57 "2006-11-10T19:38:13Z")
Looks like the German lawsuit is [moving ahead:](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1557842,00.html) > [@](#): > > The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo, whom the U.S. has identified as the so-called “20th hijacker” and a would-be participant in the 9/11 hijackings. As TIME first reported in June 2005, Qahtani underwent a “special interrogation plan,” personally approved by Rumsfeld, which the U.S. says produced valuable intelligence. But to obtain it, according to the log of his interrogation and government reports, Qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other controversial interrogation techniques. > > Lawyers for the plaintiffs say that one of the witnesses who will testify on their behalf is former Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq. Karpinski — who the lawyers say will be in Germany next week to publicly address her accusations in the case — has issued a written statement to accompany the legal filing, which says, in part: “It was clear the knowledge and responsibility [for what happened at Abu Ghraib] goes all the way to the top of the chain of command to the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld .” > … > > Along with Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Tenet, the other defendants in the case are Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone; former assistant attorney general Jay Bybee; former deputy assisant attorney general John Yoo; General Counsel for the Department of Defense William James Haynes II; and David S. Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. Senior military officers named in the filing are General Ricardo Sanchez, the former top Army official in Iraq; Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the former commander of Guantanamo; senior Iraq commander, Major General Walter Wojdakowski; and Col. Thomas Pappas, the one-time head of military intelligence at Abu Ghraib. > > Germany was chosen for the court filing because German law provides “universal jurisdiction” allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world. Indeed, a similar, but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought the prosecution of Rumsfeld… > > In bringing the new case, however, the plaintiffs argue that circumstances have changed in two important ways. Rumsfeld’s resignation, they say, means that the former Defense Secretary will lose the legal immunity usually accorded high government officials. Moreover, the plaintiffs argue that the German prosecutor’s reasoning for rejecting the previous case — that U.S. authorities were dealing with the issue — has been proven wrong. > > “The utter and complete failure of U.S. authorities to take any action to investigate high-level involvement in the torture program could not be clearer,” says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, a U.S.-based non-profit helping to bring the legal action in Germany. He also notes that the Military Commissions Act, a law passed by Congress earlier this year, effectively blocks prosecution in the U.S. of those involved in detention and interrogation abuses of foreigners held abroad in American custody going to back to Sept. 11, 2001. As a result, Ratner contends, the legal arguments underlying the German prosecutor’s previous inaction no longer hold up. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2006, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/58 "2006-11-12T07:51:54Z")
Ok, I’m a bit confused some of these arguments. Perhaps someone could clear up any misconceptions I might have. It is my understanding that universal jurisdiction is accepted by the US (and that we apply universal jurisdiction to a few crimes ourselves) and by international law generally. If this is so, I fail to see what precident this case would create. I also fail to see why Iran _shouldn’t_ be able to try the Massachusetts judiciary or the publishers of _Satanic Verses_ in absentia. I mean, I certainly don’t think they should do it, but what horrible result would occur because they could? They would only do so if they clearly intended to provoke the US. And they have plenty of ways of doing that already, so it isn’t like their inability to try people in the US is what’s preventing war with Iran. The US would have no reason to recognize such a trial, of course, and could presumably gain agreement from other countries if necessary not to extradict those people to Iran (except, of course, from countries openly hostile to US). The group pushing for Rummy’s endictment may be far-left nutcases, but they need the German federal prosecutor to agree to any charges. Given that Germany and the US are allies, I can’t believe the German prosecutor would bring charges against an American against America’s wishes without truely overwhelming and undeniable evidence. But in the unlikely case that such evidence for war crimes exists, I don’t see why charges shouldn’t be brought under the well-established and internationally agreed-upon standard of universal jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315/59 "2006-11-14T18:17:41Z")
Janis Karpinsk is testifying today ,I believe. A little more credence than you think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-gonzalez-yoo-etc-might-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes-in-a-german-court/379315.md?page=2)