Cite?
That’s not what it says here.
Oh, I know. But it’ll be worthwhile if, for the rest of his life, Rumsfeld can never visit Germany . . . or any country (other than the U.S.) that has an extradition treaty with Germany . . . 
:dubious: And American courts have more legitimacy/fairness/credibility than German courts how?
Well, you can always dream BG. However, a closer look seems to indicate that this isn’t even an official GERMAN government initiative…so I think its highly unlikely that Rummy, if he ever DID want to visit Germany ( :dubious: ) as a private citizen, would have any real problems. But a mans got to have some fantasies to keep him going, and I don’t want to rain on yours. Mine involve large breasted women with nice plump bottoms and very little in the way of clothing feeding me pealed grapes on a beach somewhere (well, this is the PC version anyway)…but what the hell.
:rolleyes: Um…perhaps because they are AMERICAN citizens? Or do you hold the US courts have greater legitimacy/fairness/credibility than German courts concerning events happening in Germany to German citizens???
-XT
Actually, this business is mainly about events happening in Iraq to Iraqi citizens, and in Afghanistan to Afghan citizens, and at Guantanamo Bay (which really isn’t U.S. territory, just ask Gonzalez) to persons of various nationalities . . .
Point being, German courts are as fitting as any to sit in judgment, even if Rumsfeld was in the U.S. when he hatched the relevant plans, etc.
Is Rummy a German citizen? Or Iraq part of the greater German empire or something? Was Germany even a participant in the Iraq invasion? Did I miss that part?
-XT
It’s called universal jurisdiction, and if the U.S. doesn’t accept it, why were we involved in the Nuremberg trials?
Good to know the Cold War is really over! 
December 11, 1941: Nazi Germany declared war on the U.S. Prior to that action, German submarines had attacked U.S. flagged mechant ships and even U.S. naval ships. Subsequent to that date, Germany launched unrestricted submarine warfare against the United States.
I would guess that as one of the international community that was directly attacked by Germany, we had a perfect right to be there.
But, to prosecute “crimes against humanity” (way beyond war crimes) not committed on American soil?
AFAIK (correct me if I’m wrong of course) the US DOESN’T accept the ‘controversial’ principal of ‘universal jurisdiction’. We aren’t exactly alone in this either.
As for Nuremberg…it had very little to do with the concept of universal jurisdiction and a lot to do with the folks on the winning side of a war. Again, correct me if I’m wrong here…but by and large, the nations represented on the prosecution side were all those nations that were also on the allies side of the conflict. Imagine that. Now, if there were a hefty representation of OTHER nations who were neutral and non-combatant, then you might have a point…though it wouldn’t be a very good point wrt the US…at least not IMHO.
Of course…we were on the winning side of the war. We (and the other allies) could have done pretty much whatever the hell we wanted…and pretty much did come to think of it. Again…it had nothing to do with your universal jurisdiction concept and everything to do with being on the winning side of the conflict.
-XT
“Might makes right,” eh, xtisme?
I don’t know about the ‘right’ part. How about this one, since you seem to love these little drive by sayings posts: “Reality IS”.
-XT
…that the Bush Administration has totally screwed the pooch on Iraq? Sure, I’ll agree with that.
“Might makes right,” on the other hand, tends to be the kind of selfish, nilistic thinking most folks grow out of once they pass the first grade.
Sure, I’ll agree with that as well. Wasn’t really the point I was making, but its not like I was REALLY expecting you to follow my main point anyway. Not when something as shinny as Iraq and Bush were out there for you to go after like a hunger crazed trout after a bright lure…
Ashame that nations aren’t individuals, and that reality is what it is. Its too bad we all can’t live in your little universe…
-XT
Rumsfeld should respect a German warrant because Mossad agents will kidnap him from Argentina if he doesn’t? Admittedly, Israel’s relations with Germany are fairly good, but I wouldn’t have expected that level of cooperation.
Gee, and here I thought you were all in favor of self-improvement and accountability. Or are you simply admitting that conservatism is a thuggish defeatist attitude that prefers to surrender to man’s base instincts?
:rolleyes:
Whats ‘conservatism’ have to do with the question? Oh, thats right…you are fixated! I keep forgetting. Here I was talking about nations in general, human nature and reality! :smack: I should have know better…you are, after all, a one trick pony…
-XT
You mean besides that which you’re regularly apologizing for?
This is another of those instances of ‘its in rjungs head’, isn’t it? Or, do you perhaps have a cite for me apologizing ‘regularly’ for CONSERVATIVE fuckup-ery? If not, then I kindly ask you to blow it out your ass.
Put up or STFU rjung. Show a regular pattern of me being a Bush apologist/Conservative apologist or get the fuck off this kick, ehe?
-XT
:rolleyes: How clever. My point, of course, was that if a country with which the U.S. government is closely allied, and which it frequently holds up as an examplar of democratic government and the rule of law in a region historically inhospitable to such things, could claim the right to prosecute a man for crimes alleged to have been committed outside Israeli territory and before Israel existed as a state, then the U.S. can hardly object to the principle of “universal jurisdiction” WRT “crimes against humanity”; nor can the U.S. legitimately object to any claim of another political/military/diplomatic/ideological ally, the Federal Republic of Germany, to indict and/or try a U.S. citizen or government official on such a charge.
Your mileage may vary, but not without profound dishonesty.
Moderator’s Warning: Both of you knock it off with the personal attacks or take it to the Pit, please.