# Rumsfeld: Iran aiding Iraq insurgents; another war before November? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656 "2004-09-08T12:53:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/81 "2004-09-22T18:52:24Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Dude, have you been living under a rock? Got google? Why do you make arguments like this, except to be obfuscatory? Is denial a congenital Republican trait or something? > [Here](http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif/countries/country.asp?ID=2&country=Iran), then, if you can’t be bothered to do a simple search Dude yourself. Bolton’s a liar of the first water. The Washington Times is controlled by a man who’s had himself crowned ‘savior of mankind’ by the ghosts Stalin and Hitler. Sure there’s been speculation about Iran’s ‘nuclear weapons program’ for years, but in the absence of hard, credible, evidence, it all comes down to xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/82 "2004-09-22T19:07:28Z")
I give up. How could anyone sling more bullshit and expect to be engaged in an actual discussion? I link a clearinghouse of information from the Carnegie Endowment for Peace, and all you can do is discredit two of the sources, based on hyperbolic comments like “he’s the heir of Stalin and Hitler”. Give me a fucking break. It’s not that we disagree; it’s just…do you honestly find me that much of an idiot? Do you really believe that kind of insipid debating strategy is either effective or informative? Why insult people like that? I try to raise cogent points, and you offer rhetorical feces as if I ought to feel edified or chastened. Why not just lob a steamer in my lap and dispence with the charade? Fuck it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/83 "2004-09-22T19:17:15Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I think there’s a couple arguments against us taking the approach we took in Iraq. > > 1. We now have a “regime change” experience under out belts, and despite the cakewalk promised by the Wolfoshitz’s of the world, it’s proven to be an incredibly difficult affair. Iraq had barely a military left to speak of, so winning the war there was never an issue. Winning the peace, our leaders have been shocked and awed to find, has cost 1000+ US soliders, and at this point a 4-6 year American presence in Iraq looks realistic. Without a massive draft and probably half-a-trillion dollars spent total, a simultaneous campaign in Iraq and Iran is simply untenable. > > 2. Iran can fight back. Not only will winning the peace be difficult there, winning the war will be far more costly in terms of American lives. Lots more coffins, and coffins is bad politics. I agree entirely. My concern is that our president is listening to people who don’t see those things as clearly, or who see them but want a war anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/84 "2004-09-22T19:21:46Z")
> [@loopydude](#): > > it’s just…do you honestly find me that much of an idiot? Well no, it’s just that you’re assuming that Iran has an active nuclear weapons program on the basis of ‘facts’ that are not in evidence here, or anywhere else. Talk is cheap, and the sheer volume of it has no affect whatsoever on what is actually _happening_ on the ground. If you want to fly off into a tizzy over silly bullshit that doesn’t matter, have at it. But when you try to justify bombing or invading other countries with that sort of crap, you need to take a moment, access what you actually _know_, and try to get a grip on reality. How many people are you willing to kill to relieve your unsubstantiated fears? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/85 "2004-09-22T19:23:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I agree entirely. My concern is that our president is listening to people who don’t see those things as clearly, or who see them but want a war anyway. Oh, they certainly do seem to want a war, but they’ve also proven to be masterful politicians. War before the election is unthinkable. After? Israel may force the issue; the shit hits the proverbial fan in that eventuality. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/86 "2004-09-22T21:05:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, Bush himself (whom I would not class as an actual neocon but he obviously listens to them) has made noises that, if not presenting an actual threat of invasion, certainly sound like the first steps of a demand for “regime change.” Except that this is not the first step, it is onein a long line of steps. Can you point to any sitting president who advocated normalization of relations without regime change? > [@](#): > > No, I did not mean to draw that particular parallel between Iran and Cuba. Fair enough. > [@](#): > > But I **do** see a parallel between Iran and prewar Iraq: The threat is there, but it’s not as grave as the Admin is making it out to be; and I’m sure the neocons know that, but want to force “regime change” anyway, and are strongly encouraging Bush to fight for it. They’re not the only ones advising him, of course. As yesterdays NYT article (linked above) put it, " The Bush administration has yet to forge a clear strategy on how to deal with Iran, partly because of a lack of attractive options and partly because there is a debate under way between hard-liners and advocates of diplomatic engagement." Probably for other reasons as well. Consultation with other nations has to occur, review of intelligence, and various other duck rowing. > [@](#): > > I see rational reasons for the war, just not **sufficient** reasons. Fair enough as well. > [@](#): > > I “demonize” – and justly so! – only those execs, and the intellectually dishonest neocon intellectuals, and the fundies who see the whole thing as a playing out of End Times prophecy. Ok, but then you need a new term. I don’t know of any government official who falls into this category. I haven’t seen any posters in here either express this opinion. If there is anyone who takes the view that we have to wage war in MENA in order to hasten the coming of Christ, I will gladly join you in demonizing them. > [@](#): > > I do not demonize the millions of Americans who, for one reason or another, advocated the war and still believe it is a good thing. The latter group I accuse only of mistaken, but in most cases honest, judgment. This is all that I am asking for. The rest we can work out. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/87 "2004-09-22T21:11:13Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > How many people are you willing to kill to relieve your unsubstantiated fears? Truly, you have thrust deeply into the heart of my argument, and dealt me the most devastating of dialectical blows with this incredibly incisive critique of my position, and your deep insight into my attitudes on foreign policy. Why, your intuitive talent for extracting subtext is breathtaking in its efficiency and accuracy. Outstanding. Game, set, match. (searches for that ignore button…) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/88 "2004-09-22T22:22:00Z")
Well, you did call me a republican. 😉 All this speculation on Iran’s nuclear capabilities in the absence of hard facts to back it up plays directly into the hands of the pro war faction. The think tanks, including Carnegie, fucked up big time on Iraq’s WMD’s. Why do you believe them now? A couple of satellite phots of a secret facility that ‘could be’ used to test high explosive triggers for nuclear bombs, doesn’t count for much when we already know that the US is [sexing up the story:](http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1291797,00.html) > [@](#): > > Bolton is not, at this stage, claiming to have intelligence which the IAEA’s inspectors don’t. After the fiasco of the US’s pre-war material on Iraq, he has not started to trumpet US sources. But he is choosing to interpret the available knowledge as harshly as possible. He is also close to the Washington hardliners in the Project for the New American Century, who created the doctrine of pre-emptive strikes against unfriendly states and who favour regime change to deal with Islamist fundamentalism. [Germany Rejects U.S. Claims on Iranian Nuclear Program](http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_3412.shtml) > [@](#): > > The German government denied the statement made by the U.S. that Iran had admitted to Germany, France and Britain that it could build nuclear weapons in three years. > “I cannot confirm this,” a top German Foreign Ministry official told IRNA in Berlin Friday. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/89 "2004-09-22T22:38:53Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Oh, they certainly do seem to want a war, but they’ve also proven to be masterful politicians. War before the election is unthinkable. Isn’t it possible they might decide war before the election would help Bush’s chances? No sitting U.S. president has ever been defeated for re-election while there was a hot war going on. (LBJ might have been, if he hadn’t decided not to run.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/90 "2004-09-22T22:48:41Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Except that this is not the first step, it is onein a long line of steps. Can you point to any sitting president who advocated normalization of relations [with Cuba] without regime change? No, but there is a difference in emphasis. I don’t recall (maybe you do) Clinton ever saying publicly “We won’t normalize relations with Cuba until the Communist regime is overthrown.” He just stayed away from the subject. Bush has made an issue of it. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/91 "2004-09-22T23:02:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, but there is a difference in emphasis. I don’t recall (maybe you do) Clinton ever saying publicly “We won’t normalize relations with Cuba until the Communist regime is overthrown.” He just stayed away from the subject. Bush has made an issue of it. I’m not so sure. Did Clinton ever give any speeches down in Florida? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/92 "2004-09-22T23:11:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Isn’t it possible they might decide war before the election would help Bush’s chances? No, I don’t think so. A draft at this point would be political suicide. I think the electorate is sufficiently anxious that anything more than one or two surgical strikes would be a swing-voter repellant. Plus, it gives Kerry another reason to point out that we’re already overextended fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq simultaneously. Arguing we’re gunning for another war, and hence a draft, would be quite plausible if we’re showing active signs of hostility. It’s just too risky prior to Nov. After Nov., I haven’t a clue. I think that Israel will likely wait a year or so before they do anything definitive. Once that “point of no return” is reached, though, things could get very, very complicated; but by then the elections will be very past-tense. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/93 "2004-09-22T23:46:51Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Why do you insist on making assertions like this? Do you really see the only threat from the regime of Saddam Hussein was that he did not like America? Really? He was just sitting there like Denmark except he occasionally gave an anti American speech? Can you provide evidence he presented any other sort of threat? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/94 "2004-09-23T00:02:10Z")
[9-11 Commission Report](http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf) > [@RickJay](#): > > Can you provide evidence he presented any other sort of threat? Perhaps you meant some sort of specific threat or at some specific time? I was talking in general to a general comment. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/95 "2004-09-23T00:09:45Z")
Um, the 9-11 Commission report states quite succinctly that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, and does in no way provide support for the notion that Iraq posed an imminent threat to US security, which was the assertion of Bush when he lied to the American people. What, do you link to giant tomes like this just to distract people? Have you anything better to throw at us, by way of a smokescreen, or are you as weak as squink in a debate? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/96 "2004-09-23T01:16:21Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Have you anything better to throw at us, by way of a smokescreen, or are you as weak as squink in a debate? Hey Loopydude, are you going to provide some evidence for Iran’s nuclear weapons program, or are you just going to insult and threaten to ignore anyone who mentions that your skycastles have no foundation? I’ve neither insulted you, nor threatened to “ignore” you, yet you’ve done both in a vain attempt to obscure the shoddy foundation upon which this discussion is based. Your continued refusal to address the issue is starting to look a lot like intentional dishonesty. Are you a dishonest debator, or just a little overinvested in proving yourself “right”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/97 "2004-09-23T02:10:46Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > I don’t know of any government official who falls into this category. I haven’t seen any posters in here either express this opinion. If there is anyone who takes the view that we have to wage war in MENA in order to hasten the coming of Christ, I will gladly join you in demonizing them. From _The Right Nation:_ Conservative Power in America, by John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge (New York: The Penguin Press, 2004), p. 215: > [@](#): > > Indeed, this [the September 11 attacks] reinforced one of the strangest marriages in the conservative movement. The Religious Right has been pro-Israel since at least the 1970s. Evangelicals believe that the Second Coming will take place in Israel – and that it will be preceded by the conversion of the Jews to Christianity; thus, both the Jews and Israel need to be saved in order to fulfill their dual roles in Christian eschatology. The highlight of the Christian Coalition’s 2002 conference was a rally for Israel. Fundamentalist congregations spend millions to subsidize Jewish settlements. Go to fundamentalist churches and you will find prayers to let Israel keep the biblical lands of Judea and Samaria. > > You might think that, as secular intellectuals, the neocons would have found this eschatological brew a bit too strong for their tastes, and that, as Jews, they would balk at being assigned to a bit role in the Christian revelation. But the neocons have always been remarkably good at biting their lips on these subjects, treating Christian fundamentalism as something of a Straussian “noble myth” – it might be nonsense, but it advances the conservative cause. Sometimes they break ranks – Bill Kristol supported John McCain’s attempt to end the Religious Right’s stranglehold on the GOP – but his father’s infinite tolerance for the Religious Right’s peccadilloes was a much more typical neoconservative position. In one essay, Irving Kristol praised the Religious Right for its vital role in creating the Reagan majority – and conveniently forgot to mention the fact that Pat Robertson had said some pretty terrible things about the Jews. I don’t know of any particular government official, in Congress or in the White House who subscribes to this brand of fundamentalism – but I don’t think it would be that hard to find one or two; and I think it would be hard to dispute that the fundaloonies do have a lot of influence with the Admin with or without actual representation in it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/98 "2004-09-23T02:21:56Z")
More updates: [http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-nuclear-iran-khatami.html](http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-nuclear-iran-khatami.html) > [@](#): > > TEHRAN (Reuters) - The world must recognize Iran’s right to enrich uranium for fueling power stations, Iranian President Mohammad Khatami said on Wednesday, responding to a U.N. call for Iran to suspend enrichment-related activities. > > But he declined to say when Iran would resume enrichment, a process that can produce uranium suitable for use in atomic weapons that Washington argues Iran is building. > > ``The international community should recognize Iran’s right to enrichment,’’ Khatami told reporters after a weekly cabinet meeting. > > `If it does so, then the way will be open for further co-operation,'' the mid-ranking cleric said. `Iran is ready to continue its activities under full IAEA supervision and convince the world it is not considering atomic weapons.’’ [http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-nuclear-iran-israel.html:](http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-nuclear-iran-israel.html:) > [@](#): > > UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Israel urged the United Nations on Wednesday to move toward sanctions against Iran because Tehran was never going to abandon its alleged quest for nuclear weapons. > > ``We know that the Europeans are trying now to engage with the Iranians. But we know that the Iranians will never abandon their plans to develop nuclear weapons. They are only trying to hide it,’’ Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom told reporters at the United Nations. > > He said he believed European nations now realized that Iran was developing missiles that could hit Paris, Berlin and London as well as Israel. [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-US-Iran.html:](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-US-Iran.html:) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) – The Bush administration has no plans to seek an ``Iraq-style’’ U.N. Security Council resolution on Iran if it succeeds in efforts to have the council address that country’s nuclear activities. > > A senior State Department official said Wednesday there is a widespread misconception that the administration wants the same type of resolution for Iran as the one which led to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq last year. > > If the council takes up the Iran question, the administration would seek a resolution calling for a suspension of uranium enrichment activity by Iran, much as the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency has done repeatedly, the official said. > > Secretary of State Colin Powell, in New York this week for the U.N. General Assembly, said in response to a question that he is not aware of any plans to attack Iran. But he added that the military option ``remains on the table.’’ > > ``I think there’s a clear understanding now that Iran must satisfy the concerns that have been expressed by the international community by the time of the November meeting,’’ Powell said. > > If Iran doesn’t cooperate, he said ``there will be every reason at that point to send the matter on to the Security Council.’’ ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/99 "2004-09-23T02:38:34Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > I’m not so sure. Did Clinton ever give any speeches down in Florida? Just to make it reasonably challenging on us, I decided to assume you meant “Did Clinton ever give any speeches down in Florida during his 1996 reelection campaign?” Oh, just a visit [here](http://cgi.usatoday.com/elect/ep/epd/epdc104.htm) and [there](http://cgi.usatoday.com/elect/ep/epd/epdc092.htm). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656/100 "2004-09-23T02:48:33Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Just to make it reasonably challenging on us, I decided to assume you meant “Did Clinton ever give any speeches down in Florida during his 1996 reelection campaign?” > > Oh, just a visit [here](http://cgi.usatoday.com/elect/ep/epd/epdc104.htm) and [there](http://cgi.usatoday.com/elect/ep/epd/epdc092.htm). No mention of Cuba in either story – which does not mean Clinton never said anything about “regime change” in Cuba during his administration . . . does anybody have a copy of his autobiography? If so, look up Cuba in the index (if it has an index) and let us know if you find anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-iran-aiding-iraq-insurgents-another-war-before-november/263656.md?page=6)