# Rumsfeld to Troops: Deal with it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784 "2004-12-08T18:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/1 "2004-12-08T18:48:00Z")
Title stolen from Keith Olbermann [Troops put tough questions to Rumsfeld](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6676765/) > [@](#): > > Army Spc. Thomas Wilson, for example, of the 278th Regimental Combat Team that is comprised mainly of citizen soldiers of the Tennessee Army National Guard, asked Rumsfeld in a question-and-answer session why vehicle armor is still in short supply, nearly three years after the war in Iraq. > > “Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?” Wilson asked. A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense. > > Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question. > > “We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north,” Wilson said after asking again. > > Rumsfeld replied that, “You go to war with the Army you have,” not the one you might want, and that any rate the Army was pushing manufacturers of vehicle armor to produce it as fast as humanly possible. G-D, this pisses me off. Why can’t we properly support the troops YOU put in there. I know we’ve been through reasons here and over at GD (not being prepared, not enough troops, being greeted with flowers, etc.) but it just infuriates me to get “support our troops” shoved down our throats by the very government officials who won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/2 "2004-12-08T19:01:31Z")
I’ve been in the Army for 16 years. That’s from Bush to Clinton to Bush. There was never any thought that every vehicle needed to be armored. From the lowest Private to the highest General, no one ever thought that every HUMMV needed to have a full armor package. Most of my Army career we used the CUCV, you might know it as the Chevy S10. No armor there. To think that Rumsfeld or anyone else should have somehow know what no one else predicted is a little ridiculous. Armored HUMMVs are being produced at the highest rate that can be managed at this time. You try to predict what might happen but in the end " You go to war with the Army you have," and then adjust to the situation. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/3 "2004-12-08T19:05:06Z")
Bush really needs to put the kibosh on Rumsfield’s public speaking. He has a bad habit of inserting his foot into his mouth: > [@](#): > > Mr. Rumsfeld seemed taken aback by the question and a murmur began spreading through the ranks before he silenced them. “Now settle down, settle down,” he said. “Hell, I’m an old man, it’s early in the morning and I’m gathering my thoughts here.” :shakes head: ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/4 "2004-12-08T19:10:05Z")
Support the troops? Yeah, right. Tell me again why the Pubs aren’t fools for voting for this gang? ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/5 "2004-12-08T19:17:21Z")
His lies and incompetence put them there for no good reason while genuine threats to the Repulblic are allowed to fester, and then he had the bloody nerve to tell them “tough titties!” and fly home to a warm bed. And really, how bad does it have to get for an enlisted man actually says something like that to the Secretary of Defense? The soldier’s remark could not have been made lightly. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/6 "2004-12-08T19:18:27Z")
**Gobear** , **5que** composed his thread faster then I did, because it didn’t exist when I clicked new thread. It was also closed before I could request to close it. Just FYI ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/7 "2004-12-08T19:20:24Z")
Armor? Fuck that. Why don’t we just unmanned vehicles and not send _any_ troops? I wanna do my fightin’ from behind a joystick and a 60" plasma monitor inside an NBC hardened pillbox . . . on Antigua. C’mon guys. There are limits to the level of safety that can be guaranteed to soldiers - both technological and budgetary. If you gotta have absolute assurance that every troop has to be supremely protected from injury, you might as well not have a military. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/8 "2004-12-08T19:29:45Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > C’mon guys. There are limits to the level of safety that can be guaranteed to soldiers - both technological and budgetary. If the fucking guys need armor get them their fucking armor. Where the hell did that 87 billion go anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/9 "2004-12-08T19:36:38Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > If the fucking guys need armor get them their fucking armor. Where the hell did that 87 billion go anyway? It’s being spent on armor. The factory is working at max capacity and has been for some time. It’s easy enough to find that information. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/10 "2004-12-08T19:39:51Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > C’mon guys. There are limits to the level of safety that can be guaranteed to soldiers - both technological and budgetary. If you gotta have absolute assurance that every troop has to be supremely protected from injury, you might as well not have a military. Spc. Wilson did not ask for “absolute assurance that every troop has to be supremely protected from injury.” He asked 'Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?" and asserted that “We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north.” Seems like a reasonable inquiry, given the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/11 "2004-12-08T19:42:10Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > C’mon guys. There are limits to the level of safety that can be guaranteed to soldiers - both technological and budgetary. If you gotta have absolute assurance that every troop has to be supremely protected from injury, you might as well not have a military. I’m not sure you quite understand how satisfied the left might be with that proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/12 "2004-12-08T19:50:07Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Armor? Fuck that. Why don’t we just unmanned vehicles and not send _any_ troops? I wanna do my fightin’ from behind a joystick and a 60" plasma monitor inside an NBC hardened pillbox . . . on Antigua. > > C’mon guys. There are limits to the level of safety that can be guaranteed to soldiers - both technological and budgetary. If you gotta have absolute assurance that every troop has to be supremely protected from injury, you might as well not have a military. Well shit, **UncleBeer** , considering how much we are [spending](http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1204/120704cdam2.htm) on [unmanned aircraft](http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009151), it looks like our military is headed in just that direction. So remind me again why our soldiers are inadequately equipped? This reminds me of that dumbass movie “Enemy at the Gates.” Remember the opening scene? > [@](#): > > The one with the rifle shoots. The one without, follows him. When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots. I am sure Stalin said pretty much the same thing to his troops. “What, now you are expecting _rifles_?” ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/13 "2004-12-08T20:03:06Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > It’s being spent on armor. The factory is working at max capacity and has been for some time. It’s easy enough to find that information. But apparently infinity difficult to cite. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/14 "2004-12-08T20:04:54Z")
Need I point out, **Maeglin** , that that same Red Army beat the Wehrmacht back to Berlin, and occupied Eastern Europe for close to fifty years? Good soldiers and sailors, and airmen and Marines, bitch constantly about the amount of supplies they have. They then go out and make do with what they have. In the case of the American military, that often achieves quite impressive results. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/15 "2004-12-08T20:04:58Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > But apparently infinity difficult to cite. Yeah the front page of [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) is very hard to find. I’m not going to bother, do it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/16 "2004-12-08T20:09:11Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Need I point out, **Maeglin** , that that same Red Army beat the Wehrmacht back to Berlin, and occupied Eastern Europe for close to fifty years? > > Good soldiers and sailors, and airmen and Marines, bitch constantly about the amount of supplies they have. They then go out and make do with what they have. > > In the case of the American military, that often achieves quite impressive results. So the moral of the story is, **Mr. Moto** , that great success on a shoestring is possible if human life is cheap and in nearly unlimited supply? If this were the case, how do you explain our paltry troop deployment in Iraq? The Red Army threw _millions_ of meatshields against the Wehrmacht. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/17 "2004-12-08T20:09:48Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Armor? Fuck that. Why don’t we just unmanned vehicles and not send _any_ troops? I wanna do my fightin’ from behind a joystick and a 60" plasma monitor inside an NBC hardened pillbox . . . on Antigua. Great, now every kid who has read Ender’s Game and plays America’s Army will start brewing conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/18 "2004-12-08T20:10:41Z")
When I heard this story this morning, two things popped into mind: 1. How bad does moral have to be for the soldiers to be openly asking the brass such questions? 2. Someone’s life has just become a world of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/19 "2004-12-08T20:13:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yeah the front page of [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) is very hard to find. I’m not going to bother, do it yourself. Well, I just checked and am not seeing that information (although there are references to “doing things as fast as we can” in the story about Rumsfeld). I do understand, though, why you might get your back up a little. After all, it is not as if a precedent exists on this message board for asking folks to back up claims that they make. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/20 "2004-12-08T20:17:11Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yeah the front page of [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) is very hard to find. I’m not going to bother, do it yourself. …looks at CNN front page… No, can’t see it… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784.md?page=2)