# Rumsfeld to Troops: Deal with it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784 "2004-12-08T18:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/21 "2004-12-08T20:19:26Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yeah the front page of [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) is very hard to find. I’m not going to bother, do it yourself. Show us the cite funboy, or shut up. It ain’t on no frontpage. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/22 "2004-12-08T20:21:43Z")
Oh, for Christ’s sake. It’s the leading article on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com). You know, the big picture of that schmuck Rumsfeld holding his hands up and likely saying, “I caught a terrorist _this big_…” > [@](#): > > [Rumsfeld faces thorny questions from troops](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/08/rumsfeld.troops/index.html) > > Rumsfeld said armored military vehicles have been brought to the region “from all over the world, from where they’re not needed to a place they’re needed.” > > “Something like 400 [vehicles] a month are being done,” he said. “And it’s essentially a matter of physics, not a matter of money. … It’s a matter of production and the capability of doing it.” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/23 "2004-12-08T20:25:12Z")
they can only do 400 a month? Utter bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/24 "2004-12-08T20:25:19Z")
You could, also, read the link in the OP: > [@](#): > > Rumsfeld replied that, “You go to war with the Army you have,” not the one you might want, and that any rate the Army was pushing manufacturers of vehicle armor to produce it as fast as humanly possible. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/25 "2004-12-08T20:29:51Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Oh, for Christ’s sake. It’s the leading article on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com). You know, the big picture of that schmuck Rumsfeld holding his hands up and likely saying, “I caught a terrorist _this big_…” I suppose, but that is not the same as the claim that “the 87 billion is being spent on armor and that the factory is churning it out at max capacity, and has been for some time”. Given a claim that specific, I naturally assumed that I would be linked to a story. Perhaps featuring some beleaguered, but patriotic factory worked recounting tales of overtime worked in service of our troops. I hope that you can see that the original claim was a bit misleading. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/26 "2004-12-08T20:32:35Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > they can only do 400 a month? Utter bullshit. Okay, _funboy_, what do you think the manufacturers should be able to produce? Real world numbers, too, not some fantastic “They should make everything perfect forever” claims. Any cites? Any evidence? You must have worked for a defense contractor before, right? Heavy industry? You’re involved in the procurement cycle? Of course, it’s much more fun to assume Machiavellian machinations behind the scenes, and Rumsfeld and Bush lighting stogies and gloating about the soldiers they’re deliberately underequipping. Hell, if Bush had done that, I might have been tempted to vote for him. > [@Binarydrone](#): > > I suppose, but that is not the same as the claim that “the 87 billion is being spent on armor and that the factory is churning it out at max capacity, and has been for some time”. Given a claim that specific, I naturally assumed that I would be linked to a story. Perhaps featuring some beleaguered, but patriotic factory worked recounting tales of overtime worked in service of our troops. I hope that you can see that the original claim was a bit misleading. Oh, I fully agree. Rumsfeld’s quote isn’t as detailed as I’d like. I’d like to have a representative from the manufacturers explaining how production lines are at maximum capacity, and they’re building more factories to try to meet demand. My point (admittedly overly snarky) is that the article was front and center. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/27 "2004-12-08T20:32:42Z")
Well, I’m just going to boringly stand in the middle on this. Part of the blame on this lies in the planning. Fast and light is a good way to fight battles, but sucks all to hell when it comes to nation building and prolonged fights. It seems that even since the beginning, those planning this mess have let optimism get the best of them. It’s a lousy way to run a war. The fact that a soldier had to ask where the armor is speaks of how badly this was planned and how poorly it’s being run. And yeah, what Rumsfeld said was entirely idiotic. Must be what happens when he tries to give a straight answer. He should stick to his normal verbal gymnastics. Makes the press conferences much more fun. **However** , what he said doesn’t seem to be the “fuck off” as much as some here are making it out to be. Armor doesn’t grow on trees and the munition makers elves have since retired to Orlando. The armor takes time to produce. It’s coming. They will have armor. Life would be easier if we could pull it out of thin air, but we can’t. It would be easier if we could pull the troops back instantly and things would be fine in Iraq until they come back with the armor, but we can’t. It may sound terribly cold, but they will have to deal with it until we can get the supplies to them. Ya’ll keep jerking your knees like this your shins will fly off 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/28 "2004-12-08T20:39:08Z")
Perhaps we should scrounge through _our_ landfills and send the scrap metal over. I bet we have better garbage here than they do in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/29 "2004-12-08T20:40:20Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > When I heard this story this morning, two things popped into mind: > > 1. How bad does moral have to be for the soldiers to be openly asking the brass such questions? > > 2. Someone’s life has just become a world of shit. 1. Anytime you let Joe Snuffy get on a mike in front of a general or high muckety muck he is going to ask questions. Most of them are going to be dumb questions that could have been answered by his platoon sergeant. Someone asked Rumsfeld about a pay problem. I’m sure his chain of command never heard of it. It happens all the time. I remember in Hackworth’s book _About Face_ he talks about an inspection by Eisenhower in Trieste when he complained to the Supreme Allied Commander that they were getting too much Spam. 2. For the questions that have been played on TV, probably not. For some of the other questions that should have been brought to the chain of command, probably so. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/30 "2004-12-08T20:41:45Z")
So with all the industrial might of our country and 87 fucking billion bucks, we can only armor 13 humvees a day? You need me to explain why this is fucked up? Hire some more friggin welders. Ship the plates to Iraq and let guys over there equip concurrently. There are probably a million things that could be done differently. What a load of shit. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/31 "2004-12-08T20:43:32Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Perhaps we should scrounge through _our_ landfills and send the scrap metal over. I bet we have better garbage here than they do in Iraq. I’ve been recycling these cans of Diet Mountain Dew, but maybe a care package would be a better idea… I should organize a collection drive at the office. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/32 "2004-12-08T20:45:44Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > So with all the industrial might of our country and 87 fucking billion bucks, we can only armor 13 humvees a day? You need me to explain why this is fucked up?.. Yea, but these are probably Union jobs so that is probably a lot of the problem. I think that we should probably outsource this job, you know, let the free market handle things. It really is the only way. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/33 "2004-12-08T20:45:48Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > The armor takes time to produce. It’s coming. They will have armor. Life would be easier if we could pull it out of thin air, but we can’t. It would be easier if we could pull the troops back instantly and things would be fine in Iraq until they come back with the armor, but we can’t I understand that, but it still doesn’t answer the question. The question wasn’t “when we will have armer”, the question was “why don’t we have armer now?”. The only two reasonable answers to that question are “Because you don’t need it” and “Because we didn’t think you would need it.” I have no doubt that the truth is that they didn’t think that the troops would need it. But the whole “you go with the army you have, not the army you wish you had” thing makes it sound more like the other answer. > [@loach](#): > > From the lowest Private to the highest General, no one ever thought that every HUMMV needed to have a full armor package. Apparently, there’s at least one specialist who thinks so. -lv ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/34 "2004-12-08T20:47:03Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > So with all the industrial might of our country and 87 fucking billion bucks, we can only armor 13 humvees a day? You need me to explain why this is fucked up? > > Hire some more friggin welders. Ship the plates to Iraq and let guys over there equip concurrently. There are probably a million things that could be done differently. > > What a load of shit. Come back with facts. Armored HUMMVs are not armored with steel. They are armored with composite materials that you can’t just weld on. It takes time to manufacture them. It can’t be done in any garage. The after market steel plates are being produced in the field. Not as good as the factory mods but pretty effective. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/35 "2004-12-08T20:47:38Z")
Just remember, Rumsfeld is one of the Cabinet folks who _aren’t_ getting the boot… (“You go to war with the Army you have”? Tough talk from someone who’ll be out of Iraq before the week’s over) ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/36 "2004-12-08T20:48:52Z")
> [@lno](#): > > I’ve been recycling these cans of Diet Mountain Dew, but maybe a care package would be a better idea… Dude, that is fucking brilliant! Think about the branding possibilities. It would be like product placement in movies, only with death! We could have the Soda companies underwrite the war. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/37 "2004-12-08T20:49:27Z")
[Worth a read.](http://slate.msn.com/id/2095705/) > [@](#): > > The need appears to be significant, however. One congressional staffer told me that Iraq and Afghanistan currently have about 1,600 up-armored Humvees—meaning there’s a need for 2,600 more. And according to a recent story on the military’s Army New Service wire, a total of about 1,000 armor kits have been shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan. That would leave about 7,000 to go. What’s more, the Pentagon’s requirements have been subject to constant upward revision, as it apparently realizes that just about all its vehicles in Iraq are subject to attack. > … > The White House doesn’t appear to be helping. Its proposed budget for 2005 includes funds for 818 up-armored Humvees, which may or may not be enough, depending on whether the military’s latest estimate of its needs holds steady and how many up-armored Humvees are already in the pipeline. (An Army spokesman said he wasn’t sure of the number.) As for the thousands for armor kits the military says it needs, the proposed budget includes exactly \*\*zero \*\* dollars for them. It’s been _two years_ now. Yes, there’s a lot of bureaucratic crap in normal DOD procurement procedures, but there are means to short-cycle them that obviously haven’t been used. The fancy form-fitting aftermarket specials aren’t necessary; the improvised steel fabrications that soldiers have been making themselves, or having made stateside by Joe’s Welding and such, are a lot better than the nothing most of them have, and they can be had very quickly. There is no abatement in the rate of attacks via homemade land mines, it’s actually increasing, and there is realistically nothing a soldier can do to avoid those no matter how courageous he is. Telling him “You just deal with it” is an insulting way to say “I don’t feel like dealing with it myself, just fuck off and quit bothering me.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/38 "2004-12-08T20:51:31Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > “You go to war with the Army you have”? Tough talk from someone who’ll be out of Iraq before the week’s over. And “hppes” the rest will be out in the next four years. That would make this war longer than WW2. Maybe. And with success not at all assured, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/39 "2004-12-08T20:51:51Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Come back with facts. Armored HUMMVs are not armored with steel. They are armored with composite materials that you can’t just weld on. It takes time to manufacture them. It can’t be done in any garage. The after market steel plates are being produced in the field. Not as good as the factory mods but pretty effective. IIRC they’re actually velcroed on, which makes it about as easy as it gets. Put the steel on until composite replacements are ready. Up manufacture of composite replacements. Don’t give me any bullshit excuses I can punch holes through em no problem ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/40 "2004-12-08T20:52:44Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’ve been in the Army for 16 years. That’s from Bush to Clinton to Bush. There was never any thought that every vehicle needed to be armored. From the lowest Private to the highest General, no one ever thought that every HUMMV needed to have a full armor package. Most of my Army career we used the CUCV, you might know it as the Chevy S10. No armor there. To think that Rumsfeld or anyone else should have somehow know what no one else predicted is a little ridiculous. Armored HUMMVs are being produced at the highest rate that can be managed at this time. You try to predict what might happen but in the end " You go to war with the Army you have," and then adjust to the situation. Well, considering we fought over there during the original gulf war, they should have known. I mean, hostility toward Americans isn’t exactly new to the region. My husband was a combat marine in Vietnam. He sort of tried to defend Rummie (tell 'em to join the armored division!!!) but fercrissakes…it’s not like we don’t have the money to outfit these guys properly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784.md?page=3)