# Rumsfeld to Troops: Deal with it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784 "2004-12-08T18:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/121 "2004-12-10T03:10:33Z")
It’s all Clinton’s fault. Of course. Should have known. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/122 "2004-12-10T03:53:50Z")
I don’t understand all this bickering. If the powers that be wanted all of the humvees to be armored they would be armored. Does anyone doubt the power of the Sec of defense? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/123 "2004-12-10T04:10:24Z")
Ever heard the saga of the M-16? The initial design was botched, and _known_ to be botched, but our guys were issued them and shipped off to Vietnam anyway. It was only after the grunts started writing home to their Congressmen, complaining that about the problems with the weapons were they fixed. This is kind of an endemic problem with the military, and based on my experience, with large organizations in general. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/124 "2004-12-10T13:34:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It’s all Clinton’s fault. Of course. Should have known. It seems like I gave credit to Clinton for making needed changes to the Tomahawk missile. My example serves merely to illustrate the long timelines associated with military contracts. You can continue to read what you want into my posts, though. I wouldn’t want to break a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/125 "2004-12-10T13:40:53Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > I don’t understand all this bickering. > > If the powers that be wanted all of the humvees to be armored they would be armored. > > Does anyone doubt the power of the Sec of defense? So why doesn’t he just miracle them all armored, brainiac? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/126 "2004-12-10T14:20:47Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Heh. They were making less than 60/month a year ago. They got the contract to increase to 450/month in October and only notified the Pentagon of their ability to increase from that level last month. Some, shall we say, [“clarification”](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/10/us_stance_on_armor_disputed/) of that today: > [@](#): > > Despite Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld’s assertion that the military is outfitting Humvees with armor as quickly as possible, the company providing the vehicles said it has been waiting since September for approval from the Pentagon to increase monthly production by as many as 100 of the all-terrain vehicles, intended to protect against roadside bombs in Iraq. > > Army officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, acknowledged yesterday that they have not approved new purchase orders for armored trucks, despite the company’s readiness to produce more. They said the Pentagon has been debating how many more armored Humvees are needed. > [@](#): > > “We’re prepared to build 50 to 100 vehicles more per month,” Robert Mecredy, head of Armor Holdings’ aerospace and defense unit, said in a statement. The company is producing about 450 armored Humvees per month, up from 50 in late 2003, when a sudden surge of attacks in Iraq exposed a lack of protective armor. > [@](#): > > Pentagon spokesman Don Jarosz said he could not immediately explain why more orders have not been placed for the fully armored Humvees. But defense officials who asked not to be identified blamed bureaucratic delays in determining how many orders should be placed. > > Representative Marty Meehan of Lowell and Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana, Democratic members of the armed services committees, said yesterday they have talked repeatedly with Armor Holdings and informed the Pentagon as long ago as April that top officials were mistaken about how many Humvees with the best armor protection could be produced. > > “That’s just not true,” Bayh told reporters in a teleconference, referring to Pentagon assertions that it is moving as quickly as possible. > > Bayh, who raised the issue of production capacity with Rumsfeld in an Oct. 6 letter, said he could not explain whether the failure to increase production was due to “bureaucratic ineptitude” or simply “general denial” about the magnitude of the need. > > Meehan said of Armor Holdings: “They have never been at full production. They haven’t received an order from the Pentagon despite telling them they can do that. They told them in September. Rumsfeld claiming that there is a production limit is not true. There is production capacity that isn’t being used.” A little more skepticism about administration claims would be much healthier for you, **manny**. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/127 "2004-12-10T18:33:05Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I remember in Hackworth’s book _About Face_ he talks about an inspection by Eisenhower in Trieste when he complained to the Supreme Allied Commander that they were getting too much Spam. Eisenhower’s response: “Change your ISP, soldier!” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/128 "2004-12-10T18:55:27Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Do you know anything about military procurement at all? > > As an example, the current iteration of the Tomahawk cruise missile has been upgraded to include GPS navigation. This simplifies mission planning and improves the missile accuracy. > > The changes to the program that included this as a requirement were made by the Navy in the Clinton administration. > > Today, we’re working on further upgrades to the missile system, including the ability to get status reports from the missile and do in-flight retargeting. These changes should be fully on line for Bush’s successor to take advantage of. > > We can’t just leave Clinton in the past. Much of our current military preparedness, for better and for worse, is due to decisions made on his watch. > > The fact that you seem to be ignorant of all of this indicates that you, in fact, couldn’t have planned this war better. Thanks for your opinion, though. I’m not talking about military R&D, I’m talking about welding some fucking armor plates into a Humvee before you go into war. This is something that wasn’t done under anyones watch, but a war wasn’t started under anyones watch. As far as planning the war better, I would have sent 200,000 troops over for starters. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/129 "2004-12-10T19:03:54Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’m not talking about military R&D, I’m talking about welding some fucking armor plates into a Humvee before you go into war. This is something that wasn’t done under anyones watch, but a war wasn’t started under anyones watch. Yes, that’s what your talking about, but that is not what the situation is. These armor kits are not simply scrap metal welded onto some humvees. You can improve the mumvees somewhat by doing that, but the armor kits in question which were (arguably) under ordered before the war and which have been increasingly ordered since are substantially more than this. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/130 "2004-12-10T19:11:35Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Yes, that’s what your talking about, but that is not what the situation is. These armor kits are not simply scrap metal welded onto some humvees. You can improve the mumvees somewhat by doing that, but the armor kits in question which were (arguably) under ordered before the war and which have been increasingly ordered since are substantially more than this. And if the Bush admin insists it is “working as fast as it can”, yet company that makes the armor says it could increase output by almost 25%, should I still hold Clinton responsible? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/131 "2004-12-10T23:10:25Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > And if the Bush admin insists it is “working as fast as it can”, yet company that makes the armor says it could increase output by almost 25%, should I still hold Clinton responsible? Well, I would not hold Clinton “responsible” in either case. Clinton ordered the armor (or some amount of it) based on recomendations he recieved from DoD. His inability to be prescient is not a vice. Neither is DoD’s. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/132 "2004-12-10T23:32:02Z")
“You go to war with the army you have, etc…” Don’t you generally go to war with a Declaration of War? Haven’t seen one of those yet. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/133 "2004-12-10T23:51:20Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Well, I would not hold Clinton “responsible” in either case. Clinton ordered the armor (or some amount of it) based on recomendations he recieved from DoD. His inability to be prescient is not a vice. Neither is DoD’s. We could quibble all night night about this. I was just refuting **Moto** ’s insane comment that the current admin has nothing to do with this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/134 "2004-12-11T01:08:35Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > So why doesn’t he just miracle them all armored, brainiac? May I suggest you read **ElvisL1ves** post? Does it take magic to say …Yes increase production! Do you have a reason they haven’t approved it? It’s money isn’t it. War on the cheap. They don’t care about the troops, they are just pawns. Read this and see how much the army cares. [http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2004/12/10/abandon1.htm](http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2004/12/10/abandon1.htm) Oh btw Brutus. Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/135 "2004-12-11T01:13:19Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Reeder, at the very least this is your FINAL warning. You just got back from a temp ban fercrisesake! And I am going to talk over with the rest of the admins whether you even get the privilege of a final warning this time, or if we just boot you. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/136 "2004-12-11T01:17:01Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > [Moderator Hat ON] > > Reeder, at the very least this is your FINAL warning. You just got back from a temp ban fercrisesake! And I am going to talk over with the rest of the admins whether you even get the privilege of a final warning this time, or if we just boot you. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] What did I do wrong? Is this not the pit? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/137 "2004-12-11T01:18:27Z")
I love how the admin is saying they were unaware that AH could increase production. I wonder how many other options they’re unaware of that they should be. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/138 "2004-12-11T01:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Is this not the pit? Uh…oops. Sorry. :o There’s the GD troop armor thread, and the Pit troop armor thread, and I got them mixed up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/139 "2004-12-11T01:26:32Z")
Whew, that was close! Glad that I previewed! I was going to report **Gaudere** to **Gaudere!** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/140 "2004-12-11T04:36:22Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > We could quibble all night night about this. I was just refuting **Moto** ’s insane comment that the current admin has nothing to do with this situation. Pardon me, but I said nothing of the sort. What I did say is that the previous administration had a hand in this as well, to refute your ludicrous assertion that Clinton’s actions didn’t matter, that that was all in the past. I’ve been working with the military as both an enlisted sailor and as an employee of a government contractor for nearly twelve years, so I can honestly say that no administration, DoD secretary, or set of congressional leadership is wholly bad or wholly good for our country’s military. This is a much more realistic and balanced view than your strange little world, where Clinton can, apparantly, do no wrong, nor Bush nothing right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784.md?page=8)