# Rumsfeld to Troops: Deal with it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784 "2004-12-08T18:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/141 "2004-12-11T06:39:45Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > Uh…oops. Sorry. :o There’s the GD troop armor thread, and the Pit troop armor thread, and I got them mixed up. To be fair, maybe **Reeder** can get a free pass the next time he calls **Brutus** an obscene name in GD. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/142 "2004-12-11T06:57:56Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > We could quibble all night night about this. I was just refuting **Moto** ’s insane comment that the current admin has nothing to do with this situation. I’m pretty sure he said no such thing. I suppose I have not committed to memory each and every post, so I could be wrong. But I think he merely pointed out that in order for the armor to have been available on time it would have had to have been ordered by teh Clinton administration. Your the one who made the odd statement that you could have planned the war better. Although I suspect that you meant that you would not have gone to war at all rather than suggest that you could have provided the armor the Bush administration did not. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/143 "2004-12-11T07:24:18Z")
Meanwhile, in other efforts to ensure the safety of our troops, the administration is planning to collect the [retinal patterns of all returning Fallujahns.](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/05/returning_fallujans_will_face_clampdown/); fingerprints and DNA samples too. Marine commander Geeky McDoofus said of the program “It’s like Humvee armor raised to the power of **ten**. The troops love the new level of security envisioned by this system.” I wonder who got the contract for the retinal scanners and database integration? ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/144 "2004-12-11T07:31:19Z")
Another soldier asked the same question 6 months ago – of a General, with Rumsfeld standing right there. They said they’d take care of the problem. Lies and incompetence. [Link](http://www.liberaloasis.com/archives/120504.htm#121004) People wonder why I’m so inflamed by this administration. Look up evil in the dictionary – there’s their picture! ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/145 "2004-12-11T09:47:12Z")
Let’s get some perspective. Why is it a bad thing when the US troops don’t have armour. It means more of them will be killed and injured. How is that bad? Remember that the US forces are the criminals in this war. The individuals and body alike. They voted for the party who started it. Let them die, preferably in agony as well as the disgrace they so richly deserve. Cowards, torturers and bloodlusting liars. Each blow against them is justice and will be supported by lovers of justice. Donald Rumsfeld, I applaud your contempt of US service people. The same contempt all reasoning people must feel. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji_Kitakyusho)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/146 "2004-12-11T15:41:19Z")
I do not wish to defend the actions of the Bush administration, but in direct reference to the OP, I think that Rumsfeld deserves a bit of respect for how he handled that particular question - no beating around the bush, no false promises, etc. A simple, direct and unambiguous reply which is in line with the administration’s actions and current policy position. It’s a shame that the US military servicemen are in this situation, but they did all sign on the dotted line. As much as being insufficiently equipped is uncomfortable, to call it unjust is a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/147 "2004-12-11T18:28:26Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > But I think he merely pointed out that in order for the armor to have been available on time it would have had to have been ordered by teh Clinton administration. In which case he’d still be full of it, as the factory was making 60/month a year ago, and upped production (in October? That’s not quite clear) at the request of the army to it’s current level of 450 a month. They say, conservatively, that they can go up to 500/month. 500-60 = 440/month, which is almost 5300 more vehicles a year than what they were building. The forces are currently 2000 vehicles short of what the commanders need. So if the formal request (and a big-assed check) had come a half a year earlier, they’d have all the armored humvees they need. **Today.** Of course, all these facts weren’t readily available when he made his first post, so I can understand his original line of thought. BTW, **Loach** , I read what you said about what you can’t comment on, read what points of mine you didn’t comment on, and read between the lines. I think we understand each other. -lv ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/148 "2004-12-11T18:35:02Z")
> [@LordVor](#): > > In which case he’d still be full of it, as the factory was making 60/month a year ago, and upped production (in October? That’s not quite clear) at the request of the army to it’s current level of 450 a month. They say, conservatively, that they can go up to 500/month. > > 500-60 = 440/month, which is almost 5300 more vehicles a year than what they were building. The forces are currently 2000 vehicles short of what the commanders need. So if the formal request (and a big-assed check) had come a half a year earlier, they’d have all the armored humvees they need. **Today.** Do we have a source that says that this capacity was available that long ago? My understanding was that the company has been increasing capcity for the last several months. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/149 "2004-12-11T19:49:59Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Let’s get some perspective. Why is it a bad thing when the US troops don’t have armour. It means more of them will be killed and injured. > > How is that bad? Remember that the US forces are the criminals in this war. The individuals and body alike. They voted for the party who started it. Let them die, preferably in agony as well as the disgrace they so richly deserve. > > Cowards, torturers and bloodlusting liars. Each blow against them is justice and will be supported by lovers of justice. > > Donald Rumsfeld, I applaud your contempt of US service people. The same contempt all reasoning people must feel. You just went right over the line, **sevastapol** , even for the Pit. Your strong opinons don’t justify wishing that service people die in agony. You don’t know how soldiers voted, and your extended accusation of criminality, bloodlust, etc. against people who voted differently from you is hateful, not to mention stupid. If you can’t argue with at least some semblence of sense and decency we will dispense with your presence here. TVeblen Pit mod ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/150 "2004-12-11T19:55:14Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Do we have a source that says that this capacity was available that long ago? My understanding was that the company has been increasing capcity for the last several months. > [@](#): > > The company is producing about 450 armored Humvees per month, up from 50 in late 2003, when a sudden surge of attacks in Iraq exposed a lack of protective armor. > > The company says that by February it could be producing as many as 550 fully armored Humvees per month – with armor plates on the sides, front, rear, top, and bottom – if given the go-ahead (from a previously cited article) So, assuming a general ramp-up, that’s a capacity of 400 vehicles added over, say, 11 months, and another 100 available over the next 2. That’s adding capacity at an average of, say 40/month. That’s nothing short of astounding, for a company to be making 9 times as many as it was making last year. I have no doubt in my mind that if this is possible, then it would have been possible to start the ramp-up 6 months prior to when it did. In any case, for Clinton to have anything to do with this shortage, it would have to have taken 4 YEARS to ramp up production to today’s levels, which is ridiculous to assume based on the rate that they did ramp up at. -lv ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/151 "2004-12-13T13:56:27Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Pardon me, but I said nothing of the sort. My mistake you’re actually right for once. It was **Loach** > [@Loach](#): > > I do have some serious disagreements with the planning of this conflict but I do not see any way to blame the lack of armored HMMWVs on this administration > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > What I did say is that the previous administration had a hand in this as well, to refute your ludicrous assertion that Clinton’s actions didn’t matter, that that was all in the past. Did Clinton _make the decision to send the troops TO IRAQ_ without armor? No that was Bush’s choice. He looked at the state of the military, said it’s ready, and sent them in. Hold _him_, not Clinton responsible ok? Bush had plenty of time to get the armoring done. What is being done _now_ (because of some wiseass grunt bring it up :rolleyes:) should have been done 2 fucking years ago. Being “unaware” that AH could produce more units is called incompetence. How many other things are they currently “unaware” of right now? Hell, for all we know there could be several other ways available to make more armor we’re not “aware” of at the moment. Better hope another grunt publicly embarrasses a superior, it’s the only way things get done. Btw > [@](#): > > COLUMBUS, Ohio - At a time when some U.S. troops in Iraq are complaining they have to scrounge for equipment, six Ohio-based reservists were court-martialed for taking Army vehicles abandoned in Kuwait by other units so they could carry out their own unit’s mission to Iraq. > **[Lexington KY Breaking News & Sports | Lexington Herald Leader](https://www.kentucky.com/)** Nice eh? > [@](#): > > This is a much more realistic and balanced view than your strange little world, where Clinton can, apparantly, do no wrong, nor Bush nothing right. The funny thing is I couldn’t stand Clinton, I didn’t like him much either. I was actually more Republican 2000 and was happy Bush won, because I loathed Gore. I tend to do a wacky little thing called “judge each guy on his own merits”. Because I do that, I don’t really go Dem or Repub, I go with who I think is best. (these days the least of two evils 😛 ) ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/152 "2004-12-13T17:43:41Z")
I’m very curious to see the usual suspects respond to getting a court martial due to vehicle cannibalization. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/153 "2004-12-13T20:18:38Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’m very curious to see the usual suspects respond to getting a court martial due to vehicle cannibalization. I doubt I’m a “usual suspect”, but from the account I read, that’s an inaccurate description. It wasn’t so much that they cannibalized, it was the fact that they didn’t make any effort to return them to their original owners, and in fact obscured or destroyed identifying markings to make it impossible to find out who originally owned the equipment. -lv ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/154 "2004-12-13T20:22:45Z")
Seems like the least of their worries over in that shithole. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/155 "2004-12-21T18:28:00Z")
“Rumsfeld fires back at critics” 12/21/04 [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142195,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142195,00.html) > [@](#): > > “The enemies we face today, for the most part, do not have large standing forces or, in some cases, even territory to defend. They know they cannot defeat us on the battlefield, so they choose to fight us in less-conventional ways — ways that play to their strengths, not ours,” the secretary wrote. Can it get anymore pathetic then this? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/156 "2004-12-21T18:41:33Z")
You go to war against the enemies you have, not the enemies you might want or wish to have at a later time. That’s why you _prepare to do so_. The interesting part recently has been all the prominent Republican Senators sensing blood and beginning to circle. Perhaps they’re growing spines again? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/157 "2004-12-21T18:58:47Z")
> [@Henry V](#): > > What’s he that wishes so? > My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin; > If we are mark’d to die, we are enow > To do our country loss; and if to live, > The fewer men, the greater share of honour. > God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more. > By Jove, I am not covetous for gold, > Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost; > It yearns me not if men my garments wear; > Such outward things dwell not in my desires. > But if it be a sin to covet honour, > I am the most offending soul alive. > No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England. > God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour > As one man more methinks would share from me > For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more! > Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host, > That he which hath no stomach to this fight, > Let him depart; his passport shall be made, > And crowns for convoy put into his purse; > We would not die in that man’s company > That fears his fellowship to die with us. > This day is call’d the feast of Crispian. > He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, > Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam’d, > And rouse him at the name of Crispian. > He that shall live this day, and see old age, > Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours, > And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian.’ > Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars, > And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispian’s day.’ > Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot, > But he’ll remember, with advantages, > What feats he did that day. Then shall our names, > Familiar in his mouth as household words- > Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter, > Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester- > Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb’red. > This story shall the good man teach his son; > And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by, > From this day to the ending of the world, > But we in it shall be remembered- > We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; > For he to-day that sheds his blood with me > Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile, > This day shall gentle his condition; > And gentlemen in England now-a-bed > Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here, > And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks > That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day. > [@Donald Rumsfeld](#): > > You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish to have. Not entirely fair, as Harry had Shakespeare ‘transcribing’ him, but he was recorded as making the same points before the real battle. But which attitude would inspire you to do the best you could? Shit, I’d harrow Hell for the first guy! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/158 "2004-12-21T19:07:54Z")
Not even the best choice of quotes from “Henry V”, I’m afraid. > [@Shakespeare](#): > > For we know enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes the crime of it out of us. But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all ‘We died at such a place;’ some swearing, some crying for a surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle; for how can they charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the king that led them to it; whom to disobey were against all proportion of subjection. More pithily: > [@Harry Truman](#): > > The buck stops here. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/159 "2004-12-21T19:18:53Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Can it get anymore pathetic then this? Well, there’s his boss, who’s [“really pleased”](http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=457) with such incompetence… ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784/160 "2004-12-21T19:37:46Z")
From the link > [@](#): > > “I’ve…heard the anguish in his voice and seen his eyes when he talks about…the danger in Iraq and the fact that youngsters are over there in harm’s way,” the president said. “He’s a good, decent man. He’s a caring fellow.” :::wretch::: Caring? Get them some fucking armor you loser. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-to-troops-deal-with-it/278784.md?page=7)