# Rumsfeld torture suit dismissed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 28, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898 "2007-03-28T22:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/1 "2007-03-28T22:15:59Z")
[Link](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6501499.stm) > [@](#): > > A US court has dismissed a lawsuit against former US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld over claims prisoners were tortured in Iraq and Afghanistan. > The court accepted that the nine men who sued had been tortured - and detailed the torture in its ruling. > > But Judge Thomas Hogan ruled the five Iraqis and four Afghans did not have US constitutional rights, and also that Mr Rumsfeld was immune from such suits. They had no _rights_ ? And Rumsfield is simply _immune_ ? Does this mean that foreigners are fair game for _anything_ ? You could use the same “excuse” to “justify” kidnapping a few thousand women and setting up a system of sex slave brothels; after all, they don’t have any rights, do they ? And Rumsfield is _immune_ to repercussions of his acts while in office ? Does anyone else see how insane that is ? Even if it’s legally true, it’s still crazy; it screams “Abuse your power !” If the judge had said something like “Well, there’s just no evidence he was actually responsible”, that would be one thing; I wouldn’t buy it, but I’d consider it arguable. But flat out immune ? Even for the American “justice” system this is disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/2 "2007-03-28T22:21:07Z")
And we don’t expect him to visit Europe anytime this life, for the reasons you mention. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/3 "2007-03-28T22:23:04Z")
I’d like to hear from someone who understands the legal machinery. They didn’t have US Constitutional rights? Nor do I, but as far as I know it’s illegal to torture me. Did they have any rights at all? Could they have been killed? What exactly gives Rumsfeld immunity? Is it a case of prosecuting the wrong person in the eyes of the law, or what? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/4 "2007-03-28T22:25:49Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] They had no _rights_ ? [/quote] No, they had no US Constitutional rights. You should have known that, since it was in the excerpt that you quoted in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/5 "2007-03-28T22:35:30Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] No, they had no US Constitutional rights. You should have known that, since it was in the excerpt that you quoted in your OP. [/QUOTE] And if that’s used as a justification for torturing them, it’s the same as saying that they have NO rights. The judge is obviously claiming that if you have no US Constitutional rights, then you have no rights whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/6 "2007-03-28T22:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] And if that’s used as a justification for torturing them, it’s the same as saying that they have NO rights. The judge is obviously claiming that if you have no US Constitutional rights, then you have no rights whatsoever. [/QUOTE] No, the judge is saying you cannot sue and win i **n the US federal courts** for a violation of “rights” unless they are Constitutionally protected. I’m assuming these people can sue in Iraq, but my familiarity with Iraqi civil law is sorely lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/7 "2007-03-28T22:42:57Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] The judge is obviously claiming that if you have no US Constitutional rights, then you have no rights whatsoever. [/QUOTE] No, he’s claiming they have no rights that he has any authority to rule on. In the same way that a local judge in the Scopes trial was forced to rule that the defendant had broken the law. He had no authority to rule on federal matters and can only make findings based on the laws he has authority to oversee. The same applies here. These people have no rights that the judge can rule on. If they want to take this case before a judge in the Internationl Court of Justice or some other court that has authority in a jusridiction where they _do_ have rights that is another issue. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/8 "2007-03-28T22:46:45Z")
Ok, so it’s not in the Constitution… but there’s not even a common ordinary _statute_ on the books prohibiting U.S Government officials from engaging in torture? I find this astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/9 "2007-03-28T22:47:09Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] And if that’s used as a justification for torturing them, it’s the same as saying that they have NO rights. The judge is obviously claiming that if you have no US Constitutional rights, then you have no rights whatsoever. [/QUOTE] You really are a fucking dumbass. US federal courts don’t make decisions about who has “rights” and who doesn’t have “rights.” They _do_ make decisions about federal and constitutional law, and they are quite limited in their jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/10 "2007-03-28T22:56:22Z")
Addendum: Does anybody have a link to the actual decision? I haven’t been able to find it yet. I want to see precisely what the plaintiffs allegations were anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/11 "2007-03-28T23:24:55Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] What exactly gives Rumsfeld immunity? Is it a case of prosecuting the wrong person in the eyes of the law, or what? [/QUOTE] There’s a principle of US law that comes from English common law called “sovereign immunity”, which says, basically, that you can’t sue the government or governmental officials for official acts they’ve done, unless the government says you can. I’m obviously oversimplifying this. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/12 "2007-03-28T23:27:18Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] Ok, so it’s not in the Constitution… but there’s not even a common ordinary _statute_ on the books prohibiting U.S Government officials from engaging in torture? I find this astonishing. [/QUOTE] I know it’s Wikipedia, but it is a good introduction: [War Crimes Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Crimes_Act_of_1996). The problem, from the second hand accounts of the ruling (like others I can’t find it online yet), it appears there are two ways for aliens to sue federal officers, a Bivens suit (which I think needs a violation of Constitutional rights), or under the Alien Tort Claims Act. Since the plaintiffs didn’t have Constitutional rights, and the Alient Tort Claims Act was amended by the Westfall act and some officers were given immunity, there was no legally cognizable cause of action. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/13 "2007-03-28T23:30:23Z")
Torture - bad. Actionable in the US - no. Nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/14 "2007-03-29T02:19:50Z")
Why would anyone care if Rumsfeld were tortured? ohhhhh,nevermind… ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/15 "2007-03-29T02:31:53Z")
Generally, Iraqis don’t have US Constitutional rights, just as I have no French Constitutional rights. Doesn’t make torture any better though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/16 "2007-03-29T03:21:25Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] Generally, Iraqis don’t have US Constitutional rights, just as I have no French Constitutional rights. [/QUOTE] Even when you are in the hands of the US ? Does that mean the French can torture anyone they like, as long as he’s not French ? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/17 "2007-03-29T03:34:40Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Even when you are in the hands of the US ? Does that mean the French can torture anyone they like, as long as he’s not French ? [/QUOTE] No it means you cant sue Le Rumsfeld over it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/18 "2007-03-29T03:50:51Z")
[QUOTE=DigitalC] No it means you cant sue Le Rumsfeld over it. [/QUOTE] Which means they _can_. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/19 "2007-03-29T04:28:25Z")
I’ve been having a devil of a time finding the opinion online. Anyone know where it is? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/20 "2007-03-29T04:35:17Z")
[QUOTE=Hamlet] No, the judge is saying you cannot sue and win i **n the US federal courts** for a violation of “rights” unless they are Constitutionally protected. I’m assuming these people can sue in Iraq, but my familiarity with Iraqi civil law is sorely lacking. [/QUOTE] It was my understanding from the previous Hamdan ruling that foreign treaties that the US had entered into were also Federal law (e.g. the [Geneva Convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention)) not to mention the [UCMJ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCMJ) and [the McCain Detainee Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCain_Detainee_Amendment). So while I would agree that foreigners aren’t protected constitutionally, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t other Federal law which does protect foreigners and foreign combatants. I, too, would like to read the ruling, as this sounds rather fishy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898.md?page=2)