# Rumsfeld torture suit dismissed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 28, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898 "2007-03-28T22:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/61 "2007-03-29T23:17:48Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] It just so happens that torture also happens to be illegal, [/QUOTE] Not if you are a non-citizen tortuee, Uncle Sam’s agents are the tortuers and outside US territory ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/62 "2007-03-29T23:33:40Z")
José Padilla was/nominally still is a US citizen when first arrested, though now he’s now apparently on Planet Zongo [acting “like a piece of furniture”](http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2019341,00.html): > [@](#): > > The US district judge Marcia Cooke disagrees. “It’s not like Mr Padilla was living in a box. He was at a place. Things happened to him at that place.” The judge has ordered several prison employees to testify on Padilla’s mental state at the hearings, which began yesterday. They will be asked how a man who is alleged to have engaged in elaborate anti-government plots now acts, in the words of brig staff, “like a piece of furniture”. > > It’s difficult to overstate the significance of these hearings. The techniques used to break Padilla have been standard operating procedure at Guantánamo Bay since the first prisoners arrived five years ago. They wore blackout goggles and sound-blocking headphones and were placed in extended isolation, interrupted by strobe lights and heavy metal music. These same practices have been documented in dozens of cases of “extraordinary rendition” carried out by the CIA, as well as in prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan. > > Many have suffered the same symptoms as Padilla. According to James Yee, a former army Muslim chaplain at Guantánamo, there is an entire section of the prison called Delta Block for detainees who have been reduced to a delusional state. “They would respond to me in a childlike voice, talking complete nonsense. Many of them would loudly sing childish songs, repeating the song over and over.” All the inmates of Delta Block were on 24-hour suicide watch. > > Human Rights Watch has exposed a US-run detention facility near Kabul known as the “prison of darkness” - tiny pitch-black cells, strange blaring sounds. “Plenty lost their minds,” one former inmate recalled. “I could hear people knocking their heads against the walls and the doors.” So the same MO from Afghanistan through Guantanamo to Charleston, South Carolina - if anyone can get to Runsfeld I’d have thought it has to be US citizen Jose Padilla, though he might not personally know much about it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/63 "2007-03-30T00:18:24Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I’m not a lawyer or constitutional expert, but you would certainly still have some rights whether they be constitutional or not. [/quote] Constitutionnal or not is precisely the issue. > [@](#): > > If you were vacationing say here, in Virginia, to be tried and convicted of a charge like murder you’d have to be arrested by authorities of the Commonwealth and tried in one of her courts…[…] Fine, but what is the basis for these rights? For instance, could the legislative branch vote a statute overnight, or, worse, could the president of te USA sign an executive order, depriving me from these rights? Because in the latter case, for instance, I don’t really have any guaranteed fundamental right. I just benefit from thanks to the benevolence of the POTUS, they could be rescinded at any moment, and I could be arbitrarily arrested, detained and tortured basically at the leisure of the “sovereign”. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/64 "2007-03-30T00:27:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Not if you are a non-citizen tortuee, Uncle Sam’s agents are the tortuers and outside US territory Nope. It’s still illegal. It’s also illegal for the President to declare war. But nobody can sue him over it. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/65 "2007-03-30T00:49:11Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] But let’s say that I’m an Iraqi. Can I sue George Bush for wrongful death and property damages from a dropped bomb on my house because the Iraq war is an “illegal war” under US law? I’d hope not. [/QUOTE] You’d be one fool of an Iraqi, then. If some foreign country dropped a bomb on me, I’d certainly be grateful for the right to sue for damages. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/66 "2007-03-30T01:14:32Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] Nope. It’s still illegal. [/QUOTE] So when can we expect someone will be prosecuted for the tortures detailed by the court in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/67 "2007-03-30T01:19:57Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] But let’s say that I’m an Iraqi. Can I sue George Bush for wrongful death and property damages from a dropped bomb on my house because the Iraq war is an “illegal war” under US law? I’d hope not. [/QUOTE] Now that I think about it, why _not_ ? If it _is_ an illegal war, why should Bush get off for the results of his crime ? ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/68 "2007-03-30T02:26:07Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > You’d be one fool of an Iraqi, then. If some foreign country dropped a bomb on me, I’d certainly be grateful for the right to sue for damages. Point taken. I mixed my pronouns. I (myself) am glad that I (the Iraqi) can’t sue for damages. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Now that I think about it, why not ? If it is an illegal war, why should Bush get off for the results of his crime ? Firstly, because the war’s legality is a political question which isn’t well-left up to the courts. But even if it wasn’t. Let’s say that the military, in a legitimate war, drops a bomb on an enemy target, causing massive property damage to an adjacent house and killing two inhabitants. Allowing the surviving civilians to sue in US courts would unnecessarily hamper the war effort, because we’d have bomber pilots weighing the civil lawsuit consequences of military action. (“If I drop this bomb, I’d take out an enemy bridge, hamper supply lines, and achieve a major operational victory, but I’d need to pay $1,000,000 out of my own pocket as compensation, which I really can’t afford. I think I won’t drop the bomb.”) If it’s an illegal war, President Bush can be impeached. That’s the remedy for “high crimes and misdemeanors.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/69 "2007-03-30T02:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] But even if it wasn’t. Let’s say that the military, in a legitimate war, drops a bomb on an enemy target, causing massive property damage to an adjacent house and killing two inhabitants. Allowing the surviving civilians to sue in US courts would unnecessarily hamper the war effort, because we’d have bomber pilots weighing the civil lawsuit consequences of military action. (“If I drop this bomb, I’d take out an enemy bridge, hamper supply lines, and achieve a major operational victory, but I’d need to pay $1,000,000 out of my own pocket as compensation, which I really can’t afford. I think I won’t drop the bomb.”) [/quote] But I was talking about an _illegal_ war. If lawsuits hamper the war effort in an illegal war ( or any aggressive war, really ), good. [QUOTE=aclubs] If it’s an illegal war, President Bush can be impeached. That’s the remedy for “high crimes and misdemeanors.” [/QUOTE] Ooooh, big punishment. If I somehow killed tens of thousands of people, I think the penalty would be a bit worse than losing my job - a job Bush can’t keep much longer, anyway. The fact that Bush will remain free and rich for the rest of his life shows how utterly corrupt and unjust our system is. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/70 "2007-03-30T02:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Ooooh, big punishment. If I somehow killed tens of thousands of people, I think the penalty would be a bit worse than losing my job - a job Bush can’t keep much longer, anyway. The fact that Bush will remain free and rich for the rest of his life shows how utterly corrupt and unjust our system is. [/QUOTE] Can you provide, clearly and without question, that George W. Bush has commited a crime? Not something shaky, like “went to war illegally”, as that may or may not be true. But a clear and obvious illegal act? IF you can, you should be talkign to lawyers. But I’m willing to bet you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/71 "2007-03-30T02:58:12Z")
> [@](#): > > They wore blackout goggles and sound-blocking headphones and were placed in extended isolation, interrupted by strobe lights and heavy metal music. This (in particular the googles), along with sleep deprivation, is strikingly similar to the methods used in eastern Europe under the rule of Stalin, as illustrated by Costa Gavras movie “the admission”. Except for water boarding, that, on the other hand, the Gestapo was famous for using in France during WWII. I think people must be really clueless for supporting such interrogation technics on the basis that they aren’t “real torture”. If they knew when and by whom they have been used in the past, I hope that many would change their minds. “we are just doing the same as the gestapo and the KGB, nothing more, don’t worry” wouldn’t fare well, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/72 "2007-03-30T03:00:49Z")
I forgot to add. You might be able to prosecute him for treason, if you had the evidence. Would death be a good enough punishment for you? ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/73 "2007-03-30T03:02:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > This (in particular the googles), along with sleep deprivation, is strikingly similar to the methods used in eastern Europe under the rule of Stalin, as illustrated by Costa Gavras movie “the admission”. Except for water boarding, that, on the other hand, the Gestapo was famous for using in France during WWII. > I think people must be really clueless for supporting such interrogation technics on the basis that they aren’t “real torture”. If they knew when and by whom they have been used in the past, I hope that many would change their minds. “we are just doing the same as the gestapo and the KGB, nothing more, don’t worry” wouldn’t fare well, I suspect. I agree wholeheartedly, let me be perfectly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/74 "2007-03-30T03:42:52Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] Can you provide, clearly and without question, that George W. Bush has commited a crime? Not something shaky, like “went to war illegally”, as that may or may not be true. But a clear and obvious illegal act? [/quote] Once again, I was responding to the phrase “If it’s an illegal war”; if it’s illegal it’s a crime by definition. And if lying in order to get us into a war and torturing people and imprisoning people without charges _isn’t_ a crime, then I fail to see why I should _care_ if he’s commited a crime or not because then the legal system is a meaningless joke. [QUOTE=Tristan] IF you can, you should be talkign to lawyers. [/QUOTE] Why ? He’s above the law. Besides which, I’d probably just disappear if I tried. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/75 "2007-03-30T04:05:47Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] So we’re going to stop bugging China, Burma, Iran et al about their human rights records then? [/QUOTE] “Do as I say, not as I do”. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/76 "2007-03-30T04:17:42Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] I think people must be really clueless for supporting such interrogation technics on the basis that they aren’t “real torture”. [/QUOTE] For me the “not really torture” argumental line is that, if it really isn´t torture at all, why do it?, for shit and giggles? Aren´t his, hmmm… persuasion methods, based on the generation of pain and suffering so unbearable that the subject would do anything to make it stop? If it really doesn´t hurt that much then it´s of no use at all. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/77 "2007-03-30T04:32:20Z")
(Off topic a bit. You know what is really scary about all this torture stuff? America has no shortage of young people who are perfectly willing to allow it, authorize it and do it. That creeps me out.) ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/78 "2007-03-30T09:00:36Z")
They might be eager now, but if/when the day of reckoning comes, all that will presumably become “we were only following orders”. Besides, it’s not really torture, ‘torture’ is when you put people on racks and stretch them, or insert stuff under their nails - what these kids are doing is using advanced interrogation techniques. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/79 "2007-03-30T09:47:44Z")
On sleep deprivation: > [@Menachem Begin](#): > > [The prisoner]is wearied to death, his legs are unsteady, and he has one sole desire to sleep, to sleep just a little, not to get up, to lie, to rest, to forget . . . Anyone who has experienced the desire knows that not even hunger or thirst are comparable with it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898/80 "2007-03-31T09:24:07Z")
Dred Scott, anyone? To paraphrase Winston Churchill, Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if America lasts for a thousand years, men will still say, ‘This was their darkest hour.’ I’m not really surprised by this, since in the past SCOTUS has ruled that the Constitution doesn’t apply to US citizens _outside_ of the US (meaning that CIA agents can burglarize your hotel room in Mexico City just for shits and giggles and there’s not a damned thing you can do about it in US courts). IIRC, the ruling was the result of the FBI kidnapping folks from the US vacationing overseas and bringing them back to the US. Why this administration has such a chubby over being able to torture people I’ve no idea. From what I can tell, their efforts at extracting information in this manner has yielded exactly jack shit. No WMDs in Iraq, no sign of Osama, no peace in Iraq or Afghanistan, nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, TPTB **claim** that they’ve gotten useful information via torture, but they _can’t_ tell us about it. I’d call “bullshit” on this matter, but that’s really not a strong enough term. “Blue whale shit” or “brontosaurus shit” would come closer to describing the volume of defecant being sprayed by the Shithead in Chief & Co. They’re more than happy to say that they’ve caught the “number three” or “number two” man in Al Qaiada or they’ve killed this or that asshat, so I have to believe that if they got _any_ useful information, they’d be going, “See! See! We _told_ you that torture was necessary!” Let’s not forget that the **one** instance where we have something _approaching_ torture, where an officer pretended to be crazy and fired off a gun close to the head of an Iraqi general, thus inspiring the general to spill information which prevented an ambush of US forces, resulted in that officer being “allowed” to resign from the service. I hope like hell that whomever occupies the White House next does whatever they can to ship Shrub & Co. off to the Hague for trial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-torture-suit-dismissed/397898.md?page=5)