# Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns" comment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 13, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900 "2007-12-13T20:19:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/1 "2007-12-13T20:19:07Z")
I was just reading an article about the “Foot In Mouth” award which reminded me that Rumsfeld “won” the award for this: > [@](#): > > Reports that say that something hasn’t happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are “known knowns”; there are things we know we know. We also know there are “known unknowns”; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also “unknown unknowns” — the ones we don’t know we don’t know. Am I the only one who thinks that’s a pretty insightful and intelligent comment? Why has he received so much ridicule for it? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/2 "2007-12-13T20:20:59Z")
Well, i’m not sure i’d call it insightful… it seems like common sense to me. But yeah, I can see why people might consider it unwieldy, but it makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/3 "2007-12-13T20:24:14Z")
He could have also said “I don’t know” or “We aren’t aware of \_\_\_”. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/4 "2007-12-13T20:32:15Z")
Doesn’t the smart man know that there are things he does not know? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/5 "2007-12-13T20:35:05Z")
But if you are aware there are unknown unknowns, does that make them known unknown unknowns? What really frightens me are the unknown unknown unknowns. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/6 "2007-12-13T20:49:30Z")
[QUOTE=Hampshire] But if you are aware there are unknown unknowns, does that make them known unknown unknowns? [/QUOTE] You’re making my head hurt. What I think it means is the realization that you may be unaware of something. So, you are aware you may not have the whole picture, but you don’t know what could be missing. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/7 "2007-12-13T20:55:21Z")
Ahh yes, the masterpiece of the great Zen poet, Donald Rumsfeld. Reports that say that something hasn’t happened Are always interesting to me, Because as we know, There are “known knowns”; There are things we know we know. We also know there are “known unknowns”; That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also “unknown unknowns” — The ones we don’t know We don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/8 "2007-12-13T20:59:38Z")
Has he been ridiculed for it? I sincerely dislike the man, but, “known unknowns and unknown unknowns,” is virtually a favorite quote of mine. I agree that it is a very succint manner of defining the uncertainty of many things and encouraging people to think creatively. If only it could have been applied more fully to our conduct in Iraq… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/9 "2007-12-13T21:11:10Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] Am I the only one who thinks that’s a pretty insightful and intelligent comment? Why has he received so much ridicule for it? [/QUOTE] Because it’s neither insightful nor intelligent. It happens to be _true_, but it’s a rather obvious and mundane truth. The reason he’s ridiculed for it is that it was a rather transparent ploy to avoid saying anything of substance. ---
**Author:** ![Flander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8c91f0/32.png) [@Flander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flander)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/10 "2007-12-13T21:39:10Z")
The quote is played during a break in an acoustic version of punk band **No Use for a Name** ’s “Fields of Agony”; a song criticizing war and politicians. It seems apropos in that context. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/11 "2007-12-13T21:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] Am I the only one who thinks that’s a pretty insightful and intelligent comment? Why has he received so much ridicule for it? [/QUOTE] Because he was generally obfuscatory, and the press is usually not impressed by the “blind pig” syndrome. Plus, it just sounded like his normal B.S. ---
**Author:** ![Flipshod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@Flipshod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flipshod)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/12 "2007-12-13T21:46:21Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] I was just reading an article about the “Foot In Mouth” award which reminded me that Rumsfeld “won” the award for this: Am I the only one who thinks that’s a pretty insightful and intelligent comment? Why has he received so much ridicule for it? [/QUOTE] Yeah, it sounds weasely, but it’s actually one of the most honest assessments that ever graced his lips ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/13 "2007-12-13T21:46:50Z")
And I might add to my earlier comment … Rumsfeld was asked a simple question having to do with facts and their implication for U.S. policy. He took it as an opportunity to pretend that the real issue was a question of epistemology. It’s evasive, but it also shows a fundamental contempt for the press and the public. A shameless contempt. Perhaps Rumsfeld’s shamelessness is what strikes viewers as so remarkable in that clip. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/14 "2007-12-13T22:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] And I might add to my earlier comment … Rumsfeld was asked a simple question having to do with facts and their implication for U.S. policy. He took it as an opportunity to pretend that the real issue was a question of epistemology. It’s evasive, but it also shows a fundamental contempt for the press and the public. A shameless contempt. Perhaps Rumsfeld’s shamelessness is what strikes viewers as so remarkable in that clip. [/QUOTE] I am sympathetic to the OP’s view. He took a lot of shit for that quote, which at least has the virtue of being true. It is odd that we would get such an extended lecture on epistemology from a man who believes that “we know where they are” means “we believe with scant evidence that they exist.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/15 "2007-12-13T22:11:24Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] I am sympathetic to the OP’s view. He took a lot of shit for that quote, which at least has the virtue of being true. It is odd that we would get such an extended lecture on epistemology from a man who believes that “we know where they are” means “we believe with scant evidence that they exist.” [/QUOTE] Do I understand then that you believe that Rumsfeld was being disingenuous or hypocritical? Or at least displaying an ironic lack of self-awareness? If so, then wouldn’t all that shit he took be justified? Unless I’m mistaken, the OP seems to believe that the shit that Rumsfeld got for that comment was unjustified? ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/16 "2007-12-13T22:21:30Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Because it’s neither insightful nor intelligent. It happens to be _true_, but it’s a rather obvious and mundane truth. The reason he’s ridiculed for it is that it was a rather transparent ploy to avoid saying anything of substance. [/QUOTE] Exactly, Rumsfeld was a pompous ass who thought himself clever and seemed to believe that his little witicisms would befuddle the press. In the end his arrogance was his downfall. Good riddance. The only way I’d like to hear of him again, is in a court of law charged w/ his complicity in war crimes, of which he is undoubtedly guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/17 "2007-12-13T23:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Do I understand then that you believe that Rumsfeld was being disingenuous or hypocritical? Or at least displaying an ironic lack of self-awareness? If so, then wouldn’t all that shit he took be justified? Unless I’m mistaken, the OP seems to believe that the shit that Rumsfeld got for that comment was unjustified? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure unjustified is the right word, but it is an odd target for ridicule. People pointed to it because they thought it was obfuscation. I don’t think it’s obfuscation, except to the extent that it is a general truism in response to a specific question. That pales in comparison to most of his obfuscation, and is the sort of ordinary political obfuscation we’ve come to expect for all politicians. So the selection of this one quote is…weird. I think the more salient point is the irony of the epistemology lecture from someone who doesn’t even grasp the basics of what the word “know” means. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/18 "2007-12-13T23:13:28Z")
As you know, you go to the press conference with the statement you have, not the statement you want or might wish to have at a later time. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/19 "2007-12-14T00:49:46Z")
[QUOTE=threemae] If only it could have been applied more fully to our conduct in Iraq… [/QUOTE] Those were unknown knowns: things we thought we knew but were wrong about. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900/20 "2007-12-14T04:56:01Z")
Check out this [NPR story](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1761585) about the poetry of Donald Rumsfeld set to music as art song. Part way down the left side is a link to hear “The Unknown” (The soprano is the daughter of a friend of mine, by the way.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfelds-unknown-unknowns-comment/429900.md?page=2)