# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/281 "2013-10-02T17:06:27Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You need video documentation? Okay, just don’t ignore it again this time. > > [http://mediamatters.org/mobile/video/2009/08/04/economist-laffer-on-cnn-just-wait-till-you-see/152856](http://mediamatters.org/mobile/video/2009/08/04/economist-laffer-on-cnn-just-wait-till-you-see/152856) That’s already been posted to the thread. He misspoke. He’s a reputable economist. Do you seriously think he doesn’t realize the government runs medicare? He corrected himself in the same sentence by saying “I mean the single provider” after he slipped up. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/282 "2013-10-02T17:07:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Everything is a lie, except what RW media tell him. It’s easy if you just accept that one law. So by not believing a story told by a Republican without proof, I’m somehow a Right Wing media worshiper? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/283 "2013-10-02T17:09:39Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So by not believing a story told by a Republican without proof, I’m somehow a Right Wing media worshiper? > > Interesting. You sticking with that “They didn’t mean what they didn’t say” story? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/284 "2013-10-02T17:17:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You sticking with that “They didn’t mean what they didn’t say” story? Is it your opinion that Arthur Laffer doesn’t know that Medicare is run by the government? The Arthur Laffer who served as economic policy adviser to president Reagan, founded the Laffer curve, and authored a book on supply side economics? The one who earned a B.A. in Economics from Yale University and an M.B.A. and a Ph.D. in Economics from Stanford University? He’s the example of conservative ignorance that **Hentor** and the four other examples I posted are referring to? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/285 "2013-10-02T17:19:12Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Is it your opinion that Arthur Laffer doesn’t know that Medicare is run by the government? > > The Arthur Laffer who served as economic policy adviser to president Reagan, founded the Laffer curve, and authored a book on supply side economics? The one who earned a B.A. in Economics from Yale University and an M.B.A. and a Ph.D. in Economics from Stanford University? > > He’s the example of conservative ignorance that **Hentor** and the four other examples I posted are referring to? > > Really? So, they _did_ say it? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/286 "2013-10-02T17:23:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So, they _did_ say it? I’ve posted repeatedly what I think they said. Laffer had a slip of the tongue and did say it but corrected himself. Continetti was making a point that wanting the government to not meddle with Medicare is valid. My position is that both of them understand fully that the government does in fact run Medicare, which is the whole point. Neither of them is an example of a conservative dummy who thinks government should get it’s hands off of Medicare out of ignorance. Now answer my question. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/287 "2013-10-02T17:23:56Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That’s already been posted to the thread. > > He misspoke. He’s a reputable economist. Do you seriously think he doesn’t realize the government runs medicare? > > He corrected himself in the same sentence by saying “I mean the single provider” after he slipped up. That doesn’t alter his meaning in any way. Who is the single provider? The government. As an aside, is Laffer really a “reputable economist”? This appears to come down to the idea that any signs with this statement on them are really lefties poking fun, any written anecdotes are mythical, and any video evidence is slip of the tongue. None of it goes to showing that some conservatives spectacularly fail to recognize the role of government in providing them with things they value, rely upon or make use of. (Craig T. Nelson notwithstanding). ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/288 "2013-10-02T17:31:32Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > That doesn’t alter his meaning in any way. Who is the single provider? The government. So since the government runs Medicare someone can’t object to the government running a single provider system? Laffer was saying that if you like the Post office you’ll love the way they provide single provider healthcare. He slipped up and said Medicare instead. It’s not complicated. It got picked up on because the slip up fits in with this existing meme. > [@](#): > > As an aside, is Laffer really a “reputable economist”? Well I’ll ask you the same question. Do you seriously think that he doesn’t understand that the government runs Medicare? You think he’s that ignorant on the subject? Really? > [@](#): > > This appears to come down to the idea that any signs with this statement on them are really lefties poking fun, any written anecdotes are mythical, and any video evidence is slip of the tongue. It’s a meme. Search Bing images for it. The overwhelming majority of the pictures you get are definitely silly and poking fun of it. It’s like angry cat or light saber boy. That’s the point. Making reference to this meme in a debate is a waste of time because in all likelihood it doesn’t even exist in real life. It certainly doesn’t do anything to further discussion. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/289 "2013-10-02T17:38:35Z")
**Debaser** , in an August 2009 national telephone survey of 909 voters, when asked “Do you think the government should stay out of Medicare?”, 62% of self-identified McCain voters said “Yes,” 62% of self-identified Republicans said “Yes,” and 59% of self-identified conservatives said “Yes.” [Public Policy Polling, Obama’s Approval…Increases, 19 Aug 2009](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2009/PPP_Release_National_819513.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/290 "2013-10-02T17:47:43Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > **Debaser** , in an August 2009 national telephone survey of 909 voters, when asked “Do you think the government should stay out of Medicare?”, 62% of self-identified McCain voters said “Yes,” 62% of self-identified Republicans said “Yes,” and 59% of self-identified conservatives said “Yes.” > > [Public Policy Polling, Obama’s Approval…Increases, 19 Aug 2009](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2009/PPP_Release_National_819513.pdf) They didn’t say that, and they didn’t mean it, either! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/291 "2013-10-02T17:48:24Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > **Debaser** , in an August 2009 national telephone survey of 909 voters, when asked “Do you think the government should stay out of Medicare?”, 62% of self-identified McCain voters said “Yes,” 62% of self-identified Republicans said “Yes,” and 59% of self-identified conservatives said “Yes.” > > [Public Policy Polling, Obama’s Approval…Increases, 19 Aug 2009](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2009/PPP_Release_National_819513.pdf) Dammit! Ninja’d! Here’s what I was going to post nevertheless… Here’s more video evidence: > **[“Keep Your Gov’t Hands Off My Medicare” cont… | TIME.com](https://swampland.time.com/2010/10/21/keep-your-govt-hands-off-my-medicare-cont/)** > > Per Ben Smith, here's a new ad from a Tennessee Republican running for the House. Her dismay with cutting $500 out of Medicare "all to help pay for government control of medicine" encapsulates a contradictory message I haven't heard so overtly since... Here’s polling results: [http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2009-archive.html](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2009-archive.html) 8/19/2009 “Do you think the government should stay out of Medicare? If yes, press 1. If no, press 2. If you’re not sure, press 3.” Based on party affiliation: 62% of Republicans answered yes, compared to 24% of Democrats and 31% of independents. Based upon ideological orientation: 59% of conservatives answered yes (and 18% were unsure), compared to 25% of liberals (9% unsure) or 29% of moderates (15% unsure). Someone hook **Debaser** up to the grid, because his handwaving is going to go critical. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/292 "2013-10-02T17:50:02Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > I’m really going to have a hard time voting for anyone with an “R” behind their name for a very long time. So, Barbara Boxe **r** might be in trouble next time she faces the electorate? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/293 "2013-10-02T17:53:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Laffer was saying that if you like the Post office you’ll love the way they provide single provider healthcare. He slipped up and said Medicare instead. It’s not complicated. It got picked up on because the slip up fits in with this existing meme. Well, he also said Medicaid, too, but of course it was just a slip. An extended, multicomponent slip in which his point was that people don’t like how the government runs things like the DMV (state government, of course) or the post office, they won’t like how medicare or medicaid are run when the government takes control of them. Of course, Krugman suggests a more nefarious alternative that I didn’t actually think of: [http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/what-did-laffer-mean/?\_r=0](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/what-did-laffer-mean/?_r=0) He suggests that Laffer may in fact have known the difference, and that his garbling of the words (or slip, as Debaser would have us believe) was an intentional slip to continue to confuse the matter in the minds of conservatives (the majority of whom believe that government should stay out of Medicare). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/294 "2013-10-02T17:54:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They didn’t say that, and they didn’t mean it, either! And if they had said it, they’d be correct! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/295 "2013-10-02T18:03:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And if they had said it, they’d be correct! But they didn’t, and they definitely mean what they don’t say! ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/296 "2013-10-02T18:07:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Someone hook **Debaser** up to the grid, because his handwaving is going to go critical. On the contrary, it looks like you’ve finally got something! That video is pretty bad. Is it real? That woman actually was a candidate for office and got enough money to put an ad out? Shocking. She doesn’t repeat the “keep the government out of medicare” meme exactly, but she seems to be basically saying the same thing. It’s difficult to even understand her. She doesn’t sound too educated. This is the first example of what seems to be an actual conservative saying the meme. Congratulations guys, I knew you could do it. As to the poll, I don’t know what to think. It’s a nonsensical question, to be sure. But the only answers are Yes/No/DK. I’d probably answer “Yes” to the poll meaning I don’t want the government to make dramatic changes to Medicare at that time. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable interpretation. The poll doesn’t have an option for “this question makes no sense and is designed to trick me”. So I don’t know how much we can infer from the answers. In any case, the poll is filled with silly questions. Is Hawaii part of the US? Was Obama born in Indonesia? Kenya? People were probably laughing all the way through it. I get lots of political poll calls and they usually aren’t so entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/297 "2013-10-02T18:08:40Z")
A bit of advice, **Debaser** -when drowning one should grab for the life preserver, not the shovel. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/298 "2013-10-02T18:09:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But they didn’t, and they definitely mean what they don’t say! You ever going to answer my simple question that I’ve asked of you three times now? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/299 "2013-10-02T18:11:09Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > On the contrary, it looks like you’ve finally got something! > > That video is pretty bad. Is it real? That woman actually was a candidate for office and got enough money to put an ad out? Shocking. > > She doesn’t repeat the “keep the government out of medicare” meme exactly, but she seems to be basically saying the same thing. It’s difficult to even understand her. She doesn’t sound too educated. This is the first example of what seems to be an actual conservative saying the meme. Congratulations guys, I knew you could do it. > > As to the poll, I don’t know what to think. It’s a nonsensical question, to be sure. But the only answers are Yes/No/DK. I’d probably answer “Yes” to the poll meaning I don’t want the government to make dramatic changes to Medicare at that time. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable interpretation. > > The poll doesn’t have an option for “this question makes no sense and is designed to trick me”. So I don’t know how much we can infer from the answers. In any case, the poll is filled with silly questions. Is Hawaii part of the US? Was Obama born in Indonesia? Kenya? People were probably laughing all the way through it. I get lots of political poll calls and they usually aren’t so entertaining. I will concede every claim and suggestion you have made in this post if you promise you’ll never ever assert that the ACA is unpopular based on polling. Deal? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/300 "2013-10-02T18:11:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A bit of advice, **Debaser** -when drowning one should grab for the life preserver, not the shovel. Holy mixed metaphors, Batman! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=16)