# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/361 "2013-10-03T15:35:22Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I think you’re seriously underestimating how much resentment there is among people towards government workers. There’s been a lot of suffering in this economy and meanwhile Washington has been booming. Federal jobs and not DC employment must be what you are referring to. Federal job losses are outstripping state and local public sector losses: [http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-16675](http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-16675) Private sector job growth has been positive; the public sector has been terrible. [http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/04/public-and-private-sector-payroll-jobs-bush-and-obama.html](http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/04/public-and-private-sector-payroll-jobs-bush-and-obama.html) These are basic fucking facts that are not difficult to come by. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/362 "2013-10-03T15:58:21Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I dunno, I don’t live in a particularly wealthy part of the country and I have a lot of conservative friends and family, It’s odd how you phrased that. Most wealthy parts of the country are liberal, not conservative. > [@](#): > > and I don’t really get the sense from any of them that they harbor resentment towards rank-and-file government employees. Those guys are just working to earn a living like the rest of us. Now, government administration: Yes, definitely. But not the worker bee types. I’d agree with this. That’s why I singled out Washington, not generally federal workers everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/363 "2013-10-03T16:00:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > These are basic fucking facts that are not difficult to come by. If you are selling that DC hasn’t been booming recently you aren’t going to find many private sector workers buying it. > [@](#): > > Billions in federal spending, largely a result of two foreign wars, were pouring into the local economy by the early 2000s. Then came the housing bubble. But after it burst, a remarkable inversion occurred: as the country withered, Washington bloomed. Since 2007, the regional economy has expanded about three times as much as the overall country’s. By some measures, the Washington area has become the richest region in the country. It is now home to the three highest-income counties in the United States, and seven out of the Top 10. From Terr’s link. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/364 "2013-10-03T16:01:30Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s odd how you phrased that. Most wealthy parts of the country are liberal, not conservative. I am confused. My statement that I live in a non-wealthy area and have conservative friends/family would seem to jibe with your statement that non-wealthy areas tend to run conservative. (And in fact, the town I grew up in borders on Appalachia, has been economically depressed for decades, and is as red as red could be, politically. The urban area I live in now is more liberal-leaning, but I still have a lot of friends from home.) ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/365 "2013-10-03T16:13:04Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I am confused. My statement that I live in a non-wealthy area and have conservative friends/family would seem to jibe with your statement that non-wealthy areas tend to run conservative. (And in fact, the town I grew up in borders on Appalachia, has been economically depressed for decades, and is as red as red could be, politically. The urban area I live in now is more liberal-leaning, but I still have a lot of friends from home.) D’oh! Reading comprehension fail on my part. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/366 "2013-10-03T16:28:43Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If you are selling that DC hasn’t been booming recently you aren’t going to find many private sector workers buying it. Since July 2011, the number of Federal workers in DC has gone down by about 10%, while private sector employment has risen by about 5%. [Cite.](http://dc.urbanturf.com/articles/blog/fall_market_predictions_the_private_sector_will_sustain_dcs_economy/7509) Job growth is highest in the hospitality industry. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/367 "2013-10-03T16:35:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Since July 2011, the number of Federal workers in DC has gone down by about 10%, while private sector employment has risen by about 5%. [Cite.](http://dc.urbanturf.com/articles/blog/fall_market_predictions_the_private_sector_will_sustain_dcs_economy/7509) Job growth is highest in the hospitality industry. Since we’re talking about the time period of the recession which started in 2008 I don’t know why you are posting a cite that just counts since July of 2011. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/368 "2013-10-03T16:46:41Z")
Since it’s easy to show that you’re wrong, I don’t waste too much time digging up precise cites that suit every aspect of your assertions. I’m providing cites more for the benefit of other posters here so that they will recognize your mistakes, rather than as an attempt to get you to change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/369 "2013-10-03T16:46:49Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Thanks for giving an honest answer, at least. Nobody else would admit this. > > Personally, I think it’s a bit nuts to say that an accomplished economist who advised a president doesn’t know something so basic about how Medicare works. But you’re entitled to your opinion. **aruvqan** didn’t put it like I would have but I think we have all known people with Masters and PhDs who are, while smart, only knowledgeable about an incredibly narrow slice of the universe. So far as the question of what degree of mistake Art Laffer made at any given point, I don’t care. I’m just pointing out that it’s not nuts to believe he made any serious error just because he’s accomplished at something else. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/370 "2013-10-03T17:06:31Z")
I’m trying to remember, drawing a blank. When did the party of “Law and Order” become the party of “Only The Laws That We Like”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/371 "2013-10-03T17:16:02Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I’m trying to remember, drawing a blank. When did the party of “Law and Order” become the party of “Only The Laws That We Like”? Are they breaking some law? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/372 "2013-10-03T17:18:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Are they breaking some law? They are trying to literally break the ACA. As in damage. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/373 "2013-10-03T17:21:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > They are trying to literally break the ACA. As in damage. Are they doing something illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/374 "2013-10-03T17:21:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Since it’s easy to show that you’re wrong, I don’t waste too much time digging up precise cites that suit every aspect of your assertions. I’m providing cites more for the benefit of other posters here so that they will recognize your mistakes, rather than as an attempt to get you to change your mind. It couldn’t possibly be that you’re cherry picking only cites that back up your beliefs. Good to know. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/375 "2013-10-03T17:23:09Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > **aruvqan** didn’t put it like I would have but I think we have all known people with Masters and PhDs who are, while smart, only knowledgeable about an incredibly narrow slice of the universe. Agreed. > [@](#): > > So far as the question of what degree of mistake Art Laffer made at any given point, I don’t care. I’m just pointing out that it’s not nuts to believe he made any serious error just because he’s accomplished at something else. But it’s not something else. He’s an accomplished in both economics and government. That would lead me to think he knows something so basic as Medicare being a government program. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/376 "2013-10-03T17:23:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Are they doing something illegal? Are they doing something immoral? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/377 "2013-10-03T17:26:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Are they doing something immoral? That’s a subjective value judgment, not an objective evaluation. IMO, no. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/378 "2013-10-03T17:28:33Z")
So you’re okay with this precedent? It won’t bother you if the Democrats refuse to pass an appropriations bill that includes funding for all the duly passed legislation they dislike? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/379 "2013-10-03T17:30:43Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Agreed. > > But it’s not something else. He’s an accomplished in both economics and government. That would lead me to think he knows something so basic as Medicare being a government program. On point: I have a relative who is a highly ranked chemist for the government. He knows, because of his training, that evolution is real. But because he’s so utterly in the RW Media, he wants creationism taught in high school. He has trouble and blusters if you try to pin him down on why. So because of his ideological push, he’s supporting something he knows isn’t true. Because everyone he idolizes says the words. It’s possible to, in the moment, just parrot the party line when you know better, because it is very important to you. I suspect that Laffer is similar. Yeah, in a paper he’d never suggest that Medicare is private, but when his visceral brain is in charge, he just regurgitates arguments he hears around the campfire. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/380 "2013-10-03T17:34:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s a subjective value judgment, not an objective evaluation. IMO, no. I would say that throwing a tantrum to overturn an existing law, and hurting hundreds of thousands of people to do it is immoral. People will lose their houses because of the shutdown, if it’s long enough. People will have marriages fall apart because of the financial stress. And it could be avoided, if they just did their job. Sickening, imho. And no, I suspect it isn’t illegal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=20)