# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/381 "2013-10-03T17:35:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If anyone thinks that food inspections for non-meat products are not important, I wonder if they remember a restaurant chain called Chi Chi’s? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course not. Everyone who ate there is dead. It’s a self-correcting problem. To be fair, anyone who would eat in a place named Chi Chi’s probably ought to drop dead. I have an English friend here who is about to take his Thai girlfriend on a three-week tour of a huge chunk of the US West and Midwest. They leave two weeks from now. Yellowstone, the Badlands, Mt Rushmore and others feature heavily on their itinerary, and he’s already booked and paid for a night in a lodge inside Sequoia National Park. They’re watching developments closely. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/382 "2013-10-03T17:37:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So you’re okay with this precedent? It won’t bother you if the Democrats refuse to pass an appropriations bill that includes funding for all the duly passed legislation they dislike? If they control the House or the Senate, and they are strongly enough against that particular legislation, and they suggest changes (especially ones that Republicans agree with), and the Republicans say “my way or the highway”, yes, I would say they should do it. It’s really weird to me that people think that the House should just rubberstamp whatever the Senate wants. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/383 "2013-10-03T17:37:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So you’re okay with this precedent? It won’t bother you if the Democrats refuse to pass an appropriations bill that includes funding for all the duly passed legislation they dislike? Your not asking me, but I’ll give my take on this. I’m not OK with the precedent, but I also don’t think it’s immoral or illegal. It’s more accurately just described as a flawed process. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/384 "2013-10-03T17:39:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I suspect that Laffer is similar. Yeah, in a paper he’d never suggest that Medicare is private, but when his visceral brain is in charge, he just regurgitates arguments he hears around the campfire. Maybe. It’s an interesting theory. He could have just got caught up in the moment. Or as others point out he might be deliberately trying to mislead the viewers. I think it’s most likely that he simply had a slip of the tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/385 "2013-10-03T17:42:37Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If you are selling that DC hasn’t been booming recently you aren’t going to find many private sector workers buying it. I can easily requote you; you’re the one who made a specific and erroneous claim about “government workers.” If you want to talk about the economy of DC, that’s fine, but it washes over the issue of government workers (since the DC economy is only partially a function of “government workers” and since “government workers” are only partially located in DC.). It’s also mostly irrelevant to the direct impact of the shutdown on employment. This really makes it seem like your efforts here are entirely semantic game playing. Do you have anything of worth to contribute? Should we appeal to Bricker for a ruling? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/386 "2013-10-03T17:49:10Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I can easily requote you; you’re the one who made a specific and erroneous claim about “government workers.” > > If you want to talk about the economy of DC, that’s fine, but it washes over the issue of government workers (since the DC economy is only partially a function of “government workers” and since “government workers” are only partially located in DC.). It’s also mostly irrelevant to the direct impact of the shutdown on employment. > > This really makes it seem like your efforts here are entirely semantic game playing. Do you have anything of worth to contribute? Should we appeal to Bricker for a ruling? I clearly said “Washington” in my original post on this. You must have missed it. We might as well drop it. No one has even attempted to address my point with a cite about what private sector workers think since that’s what I was claiming. It’s possible for people to think something that isn’t even true you know.\* Keep on thinking that all the private sector workers who have been struggling in the bad economy since 2008 don’t harbor a grudge against the Washington bureaucrats who have it much better than they do. If you think this you must not get out very often, especially not to flyover states. \*Not that I’m in agreement with anyone’s particular argument that Washington bureaucrats have been suffering in the bad economy anything like the public sector has. Just making the point. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/387 "2013-10-03T17:58:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > To be fair, I think we’ve all grown desensitized after watching so many of our families and friends lose jobs and houses since 2008. Not to say it’s right, but with so many private-sector and local/state employees who have lost jobs, it’s unfair to say federal workers should be immune. And yes, I lost my job [not furloughed] along with 50% of my school last summer for bullshit politics between our superintendent and the State Dept of Education. It’s not just federal workers who are suffering because of this. There are already lots of workers in the private sector who are suffering because of these shenanigans, and it will only get worse the longer the shutdown lasts. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/388 "2013-10-03T18:05:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know what you are searching for here, but I’ll try to answer. It basically depends on how you define terms. We’re talking about a “basic level” of both health care and education. > > I would argue that everyone in the US, even those in the inner city get a basic level of healthcare. **It’s obviously not optimal, but if even the poorest person from the inner city gets into a car accident they will be taken to a hospital and get patched up. That’s a “basic level” of healthcare.** > > Education on the other hand is failing 50% or so of those same people. Inner city schools are graduating kids who literally can’t read. That’s failing to meet even a “basic level” of education. > > This what you were looking for? Ummm, no, not quite. I had in mind a basic level of healthcare that _doesn’t_ tend to result in a full write-off on the part of the provider. I _will_ (provisionally) accept your 50% “fall-through-the-cracks” estimate on education. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/389 "2013-10-03T18:06:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If they control the House or the Senate, and they are strongly enough against that particular legislation, and they suggest changes (especially ones that Republicans agree with), and the Republicans say “my way or the highway”, yes, I would say they should do it. The Democrats didn’t say “my way or the highway”. The ACA was discussed in committee and on the floor of Congress for weeks, and hundreds of changes were made at the request of Republicans. Since then, Republicans have lost a floor vote, an election, and a Supreme Court decision over it. Whose way or the highway, again? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/390 "2013-10-03T18:09:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Bzzzzt. Since 2009, 5 million jobs have been added in the private sector while the public sector has shed 721,000 jobs. I just had this very conversation with someone on a news board. Gave him statistics and cites and everything. His response? “You’re just a socialist hippie and I’m right.” God, those sites are depressing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/391 "2013-10-03T18:13:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Democrats didn’t say “my way or the highway”. The ACA was discussed in committee and on the floor of Congress for weeks, and hundreds of changes were made at the request of Republicans. Since then, Republicans have lost a floor vote, an election, and a Supreme Court decision over it. Whose way or the highway, again? “No negotiation whatsoever” sounds like “my way or highway” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/392 "2013-10-03T18:20:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “No negotiation whatsoever” sounds like “my way or highway” to me. I asked this before, and I can’t see that I ever got an answer. What, exactly, are Republicans putting on the table for negotiation that should make Dems interested in sitting down? Everyone, Democrats and Republicans, want government to re-open. The only matter that Republicans seem to want to negotiate is whether the ACA is eliminated or just watered down. Thus, the only negotiation is whether the Tea Party will win a little or win a lot. So, if Republicans were serious about wanting to negotiate – which I do not believe they are sincere about – they should state what other topics they are willing to entertain during these negotiations to address Democratic priorities. How about gun control? Are Republicans offering a negotiation that includes the CR, ACA, and Obama’s gun control measures? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/393 "2013-10-03T18:20:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “No negotiation whatsoever” sounds like “my way or highway” to me. They tried convincing the public of this in the 2012 election- they failed. The Republicans will have another chance in 2014 and 2016- if the bill is as bad as they say it is, then those will be easy elections for them to win (and, therefore, easy for them to repeal the bill). A majority in the House support a clean CR, but Boehner won’t bring it to a vote. It certainly looks like what the Republicans are most afraid of is that a majority of the public will _like_ the ACA. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/394 "2013-10-03T18:20:55Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I clearly said “Washington” in my original post on this. You must have missed it. > > We might as well drop it. No one has even attempted to address my point with a cite about what private sector workers think since that’s what I was claiming. It’s possible for people to think something that isn’t even true you know.\* Good God. I can’t wait for you to move towards arguing that you only meant a few specific zip codes, and you didn’t mean to include employment in anything in Bethesda, Arlington or Silver Spring. And now you say that you meant to address _perception_, rather than reality? Well that’s nice, since you can make any assertion you like about perception, and it is essentially unprovable. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/395 "2013-10-03T18:24:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I asked this before, and I can’t see that I ever got an answer. What, exactly, are Republicans putting on the table for negotiation that should make Dems interested in sitting down? Example: Republicans suggested removing the medical device tax from Obamacare. Lots of Democrats support that. > [@](#): > > Thus, the only negotiation is whether the Tea Party will win a little or win a lot. Yup. And in Democrats’ eyes, preventing Tea Party winning even a little is worth what they insist is a catastrophe for the country. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/396 "2013-10-03T18:32:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Example: Republicans suggested removing the medical device tax from Obamacare. Lots of Democrats support that. So a Republican preference, and one that most Democrats oppose, is a concession to the Democrats? If that’s considered a concession, then you must understand why the Democratic leadership is not really onboard… > [@](#): > > Yup. And in Democrats’ eyes, preventing Tea Party winning even a little is worth what they insist is a catastrophe for the country. Preventing political hostage-taking from becoming a legitimate tactic is necessary for the functioning of our country. If the Republicans think they can threaten shutdown/default over every disagreement and actually _win_, then the Democrats lose automatically on every single issue from now until they have a majority in both Houses plus the Presidency. So the Democrats have no choice- allowing this to be seen as a legitimate tactic is the end of governance with a divided government. The Republicans can always try to win the next election, and win the Presidency, and repeal the ACA- which should be easy if it’s as bad as they say it is. That’s why the Republicans are the unreasonable party in this dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/397 "2013-10-03T18:32:53Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I clearly said “Washington” in my original post on this. You must have missed it. > [@Debaser](#): > > I think you’re seriously underestimating how much resentment there is among people towards **government workers.** There’s been a lot of suffering in this economy and meanwhile **Washington** has been booming. Bolding mine. It is beyond disingenuous for you to pretend that your use of the word “Washington” did not follow from your use of the term “government workers.” You’re just completely playing stupid games at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/398 "2013-10-03T18:34:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > . And in Democrats’ eyes, preventing Tea Party winning even a little is worth what they insist is a catastrophe for the country. Terrorist: Give me everything I demand or I will shoot this family Police: No. We will not give in to your demands Terrorist: \ Why won’t you negotiate? You just don’t want me to win \ ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/399 "2013-10-03T18:36:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So a Republican preference, and one that most Democrats oppose, is a concession to the Democrats? AFAIK, most Democrats agree with it. > [@](#): > > If the Republicans think they can threaten shutdown/default over every disagreement and actually _win_, then the Democrats lose automatically on every single issue from now until they have a majority in both Houses plus the Presidency. So the Democrats have no choice- allowing this to be seen as a legitimate tactic is the end of governance with a divided government. Republicans have no choice. They are in the corner and the only way out is to win this. Or be humiliated and done for, politically. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/400 "2013-10-03T18:38:40Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Terrorist: Give me everything I demand or I will shoot this family > > Police: No. We will not give in to your demands > > Terrorist: \ Why won’t you negotiate? You just don’t want me to win \ That would be apt - if Republicans didn’t whittle down “everything they demand” to almost nothing by now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=21)