# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/401 "2013-10-03T18:41:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And now you say that you meant to address _perception_, rather than reality? Well that’s nice, since you can make any assertion you like about perception, and it is essentially unprovable. Hey, I didn’t bring the subject up. **Hentor** and **Saint Cad** were having an interesting discussion and I weighed in. The entire focus from the beginning was on what people think. Sorry you weren’t following along. I was pointing out that in my opinion **Hentor** was being a bit naive about how many people think of government employees, particularly in Washington. I never intended it to be a discussion of facts and figures regarding how many private sector jobs lost vs public sector. You and others did that because you were offended at the insinuation that government employees have it in any way better than everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/402 "2013-10-03T18:41:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > AFAIK, most Democrats agree with it. Do you have a cite that most Democrats are in favor of it? > [@](#): > > Republicans have no choice. They are in the corner and the only way out is to win this. Or be humiliated and done for, politically. If true, they got themselves into this. Even though a hostage-taker may have no good options, shooting the hostage is still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/403 "2013-10-03T18:42:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would say that throwing a tantrum to overturn an existing law, and hurting hundreds of thousands of people to do it is immoral. > > People will lose their houses because of the shutdown, if it’s long enough. People will have marriages fall apart because of the financial stress. > > And it could be avoided, if they just did their job. Sickening, imho. > > And no, I suspect it isn’t illegal. Only because you disagree with the objective. Let’s say the situation were reversed and the Dems controlled the House vs The Pubs controlled the Senate and WH. Would you consider it immoral if the Dems shut down the government to ensure true UHC was passed? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/404 "2013-10-03T18:42:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That would be apt - if Republicans didn’t whittle down “everything they demand” to almost nothing by now. Where “almost nothing” is defined as the entire ACA, which was negotiated and voted in by congress years ago, and has survived a supreme court challenge and umpteen attempts to repeal it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/405 "2013-10-03T18:42:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That would be apt - if Republicans didn’t whittle down “everything they demand” to almost nothing by now. So it’s OK to give in to a hostage-taker’s demands if the demands are small? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/406 "2013-10-03T18:43:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Preventing political hostage-taking from becoming a legitimate tactic is necessary for the functioning of our country. If the Republicans think they can threaten shutdown/default over every disagreement and actually _win_, then the Democrats lose automatically on every single issue from now until they have a majority in both Houses plus the Presidency. So the Democrats have no choice- allowing this to be seen as a legitimate tactic is the end of governance with a divided government. > > The Republicans can always try to win the next election, and win the Presidency, and repeal the ACA- which should be easy if it’s as bad as they say it is. That’s why the Republicans are the unreasonable party in this dispute. I’m actually in agreement with you and not **Terr** about the shutdown being used as a tactic. However, when you say it like this it actually make me think it might not be such a bad idea after all. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/407 "2013-10-03T18:44:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > AFAIK, most Democrats agree with it. Cite please? Even if that’s true, it still isn’t a concession to the Democrats. Do you understand what a concession is? Hint, if 100% of your side wants it, you aren’t conceding anything. You’re just adding another demand for your side but trying to use a different word for it. > [@Terr](#): > > Republicans have no choice. They are in the corner and the only way out is to win this. Or be humiliated and done for, politically. They put themselves into this corner. They want the Democrats to bail them out so they don’t embarrass themselves? Too late for that, and besides that, why should the Democrats help them out of this self inflicted bad situation? Try a thought experiment for me, if the parties were exactly reversed in this situation would you want the Republicans to toss out a life preserver if the Democrats screwed themselves into an awful position? My guess is no, you most certainly would not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/408 "2013-10-03T18:44:50Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m actually in agreement with you and not **Terr** about the shutdown being used as a tactic. However, when you say it like this it actually make me think it might not be such a bad idea after all. > > 😉 If you’re serious, are you saying you’re OK with divided government never functioning again? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/409 "2013-10-03T18:46:03Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Bolding mine. > > It is beyond disingenuous for you to pretend that your use of the word “Washington” did not follow from your use of the term “government workers.” You’re just completely playing stupid games at this point. You’re right. Words don’t mean anything. :rolleyes: I said the words “Government Workers” and “Washington” because, well… I actually meant government workers in Washington. I fail to see how this is tremendously dishonest on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/410 "2013-10-03T18:48:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you’re serious, are you saying you’re OK with divided government never functioning again? No. That’s overstating it. But you’ve got me thinking. It might not be that bad for divided government never to be able to pass a major law like ACA again. Depends on how often it’s used. Also, define “functioning”. Once the shutdown is over is the government still “functioning” if no laws at all can be passed because of the looming threat of another shutdown? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/411 "2013-10-03T18:50:45Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > No. That’s overstating it. But you’ve got me thinking. It might not be that bad for divided government never to be able to pass a major law like ACA again. OK- I think this would be bad. > [@](#): > > Also, define “functioning”. Once the shutdown is over is the government still “functioning” if no laws at all can be passed because of the looming threat of another shutdown? Parts of the government may be functioning in this case, but not the legislative part. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/412 "2013-10-03T18:54:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If true, they got themselves into this. Even though a hostage-taker may have no good options, shooting the hostage is still wrong. Again, wrong analogy. But if you do take that analogy as a base, what is more important, the “principle” of not negotiating or the life of the hostage? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/413 "2013-10-03T18:56:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Parts of the government may be functioning in this case, but not the legislative part. Sounds perfect. Let’s try that for a decade or two and see if anybody notices. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/414 "2013-10-03T18:59:02Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > They put themselves into this corner. They want the Democrats to bail them out so they don’t embarrass themselves? Too late for that, and besides that, why should the Democrats help them out of this self inflicted bad situation? To prevent what Democrats are trying to portray as a catastrophe for the country? But then I think Democrats really don’t think government shutdown is that bad, they are just pretending it is. > [@](#): > > Try a thought experiment for me, if the parties were exactly reversed in this situation would you want the Republicans to toss out a life preserver if the Democrats screwed themselves into an awful position? My guess is no, you most certainly would not. Never back your enemy into the corner, unless you want a fight to the death. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/415 "2013-10-03T19:00:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So it’s OK to give in to a hostage-taker’s demands if the demands are small? Again, bad analogy but for the sake of the argument - yes, authorities do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/416 "2013-10-03T19:01:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Where “almost nothing” is defined as the entire ACA Factually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/417 "2013-10-03T19:05:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you have a cite that most Democrats are in favor of it? > **[The piece of Obamacare that Dems wouldn't mind giving up](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/the-piece-obamacare-dems-wouldnt-msna168056)** > > Even as Democrats stand shoulder to shoulder in opposition to GOP threats to shut down the government or reject a debt-limit increase, they’re wavering ever so 30 Democrats in the Senate are a majority. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/418 "2013-10-03T19:07:27Z")
The actual cite: > [@](#): > > It should therefore come as little surprise that last March a (non-binding and entirely symbolic) resolution calling for repeal of the medical-device tax passed the Senate 79-20, with more than 30 Democrats voting aye. A “real” vote to repeal the tax would draw fewer votes, because supporters would have to find $29 billion in replacement revenue. But how many fewer is anybody’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/419 "2013-10-03T19:08:19Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The actual cite: “with more than 30 Democrats voting aye”. I believe “voting aye” indicates “being in favor” of something, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/420 "2013-10-03T19:08:53Z")
Do those Democrats favor a rescinded medical device tax as a means of defunding the dreaded ObamaCare, or are they in favor of moving that tax burden onto other shoulders? Makes big difference, yes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=22)