# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/481 "2013-10-03T22:39:43Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Here’s the worst part of the shutdown for me. I would actually support a shutdown if the issue were the complete lack of any reasonable budgeting at the Federal level. And yes it is on both sides of the aisle. At issue should be that we need to say no to more debt (i.e. do not raise the debt ceiling) and if you want to spend more money, you need to raise more revenue or not spend the money. While I sympathize with the gut instinct that government should balance its budget, even if I think it’s a naive idea, that really has nothing to do with the current issue of the debt ceiling. The spending is already authorized. Defaulting on debt is unconstitutional. Not spending money to execute the laws duly passed by Congress is illegal. Balancing the budget by not allowing the Executive to borrow would give him power that he does not have to pick and choose where the money is spent. If Congress wants to balance the budget, they must do it by actually balancing it, not by taking away the ability to pay for the stuff they authorized. There shouldn’t even be a debt ceiling. It’s a profoundly stupid idea, and using it to hold other legislation hostage is even more profoundly stupid. And reckless. And potentially catastrophic to the economy of the US and the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/482 "2013-10-03T22:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > …That is cool… Lincoln said _that_? Far out. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/483 "2013-10-03T22:48:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Lincoln said _that_? Far out. He did indeed, confirmed by multiple sources. And if anyone can find out exactly what the connotation was in 1860, please share with the class, because I’m having trouble finding info online. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/484 "2013-10-03T22:51:20Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Do you honestly think that’s equivalent? > > GOP: Destroy this law or we’ll make millions of our countrymen suffer and some will likely die. Right now the GOP is not asking to “destroy this law”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/485 "2013-10-03T22:56:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right now the GOP is not asking to “destroy this law”. Which GOP? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/486 "2013-10-03T23:00:33Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Why, when that greater good includes greater avaliability for kid’s cancer treatments? > > It’s sickening to prefer cancer treatments for more kids? The end justifies the means. And you accuse the GOP of that. Projection. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/487 "2013-10-03T23:02:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The end justifies the means. And you accuse the GOP of that. Projection. True or false, the government shutdown is the result of the GOP making demands? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/488 "2013-10-03T23:06:19Z")
It isn’t a projection once they have clearly demonstrated the fact. What the hell do you think happens to people without health insurance? They get better anyway, so no need for a doctor? No, they get worse, they suffer, sometimes they die. What else could happen? Do you support compulsory vaccination? That isn’t “socialized medicine”? How about quarantines for infectious diseases? Clearly an infringement on liberty imposed on innocent people, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/489 "2013-10-03T23:07:10Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > He did indeed, confirmed by multiple sources. And if anyone can find out exactly what the connotation was in 1860, please share with the class, because I’m having trouble finding info online. Based on context, I would expect it to mean “that’s some cold shit right here” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/490 "2013-10-03T23:07:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > True or false, the government shutdown is the result of the GOP making demands? Yes. It is also the result of the Democrats making demands. As in “clean CR or the puppy gets it”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/491 "2013-10-03T23:08:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > True or false, the government shutdown is the result of the GOP making demands? Suggestions, really. Like guidelines. Don’t let the voting record fool you, that’s just the lies of the liberal media, just because they voted for something doesn’t mean they actually were _for_ it! Its pretty easy to get those two buttons mixed up, you know! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/492 "2013-10-03T23:10:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. It is also the result of the Democrats making demands. As in “clean CR or the puppy gets it”. Clean CR is the default, normal action- it’s the Republicans who went outside the norm (and took hostages in our metaphor), not the Democrats. This was part of the Republicans’ plan, as confirmed by past statements and memoranda. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/493 "2013-10-03T23:12:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. It is also the result of the Democrats making demands. As in “clean CR or the puppy gets it”. Good luck selling that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/494 "2013-10-03T23:13:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Clean CR is the default, normal action Ah so it is “our demands are just! their demands are unfair!”. Fine - but don’t pretend there are demands only from one side. Again, same as with the debt limit - if the requirement to legislate it exists, that means it cannot be expected that it be automatically rubberstamped. Because if there was such an expectation, there would be no need for such legislation and it wouldn’t be required. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/495 "2013-10-03T23:23:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. It is also the result of the Democrats making demands. As in “clean CR or the puppy gets it”. No. Stop right there. The budget, or at least a CR is the job of congress to do. You don’t get to demand extra shit for doing your basic duty. Or at least you shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/496 "2013-10-03T23:24:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah so it is “our demands are just! their demands are unfair!”. Fine - but don’t pretend there are demands only from one side. > > Again, same as with the debt limit - if the requirement to legislate it exists, that means it cannot be expected that it be automatically rubberstamped. Because if there was such an expectation, there would be no need for such legislation and it wouldn’t be required. So, in other words, you simply are unwilling to admit that one side is making demands here. Fine. I thought you were looking for reasoned debate, but if all you can do is stomp your feet about how the Dems are just as bad, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/497 "2013-10-03T23:25:53Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/498 "2013-10-03T23:28:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah so it is “our demands are just! their demands are unfair!”. Fine - but don’t pretend there are demands only from one side. > > Again, same as with the debt limit - if the requirement to legislate it exists, that means it cannot be expected that it be automatically rubberstamped. Because if there was such an expectation, there would be no need for such legislation and it wouldn’t be required. The Teabagger demand is to delay or eliminate health care insurance for needy citizens. The Democratic demand is that the debate over Obamacare not take place as part of the unrelated, necessary, requirement to pass the resolution required to fund the government. Let the people decide who is just. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/499 "2013-10-03T23:32:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah so it is “our demands are just! their demands are unfair!”. Fine - but don’t pretend there are demands only from one side. Only if (again in our hostage taking metaphor) “don’t kill the hostage” is a demand. If the Democrats had memos and statements going back a few months indicating in a straight-forward way that their plan was to shut down the government (or threaten to) in order to get their way, you’d have a point. But actually the Republicans do- they planned to use the threat of shutdown to defund and delay the ACA. So yes, in the real world, the Republicans planned to make demands against a threat of shutdown and default, and the Democrats did not. > [@](#): > > Again, same as with the debt limit - if the requirement to legislate it exists, that means it cannot be expected that it be automatically rubberstamped. Because if there was such an expectation, there would be no need for such legislation and it wouldn’t be required. Sure, in a pretend and simple world of black and white literalness, perhaps. But in the real world, with complex politics and complex interactions, the debt limit not being extended would result in financial collapse for all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/500 "2013-10-03T23:34:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah so it is “our demands are just! their demands are unfair!”. Fine - but don’t pretend there are demands only from one side. > > Again, same as with the debt limit - if the requirement to legislate it exists, that means it cannot be expected that it be automatically rubberstamped. Because if there was such an expectation, there would be no need for such legislation and it wouldn’t be required. The law passed. The law is enacted. Most Republicans know and understand this, and want this Republican blackmail to stop because they know this is a cheap and underhanded trick that can’t work, so you are an unwanted minority in your own party. How does that feel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=26)