# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/61 "2013-10-01T15:24:30Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Will the civil servants receive back pay to October 1 after everything returns to normal? Or are they literally in an unemployed state right now and will never receive pay covering the duration of the shutdown? If a worker is deemed essential so that they remain on the job, they will be paid once appropriations are available again. Those who are furloughed are not entitled to pay. In the past, a special law was passed to give them back pay, but there’s a snowman’s chance in hell that this will happen again this year. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/62 "2013-10-01T15:25:43Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Sorry, but there’s nothing scary in that list. I’m wondering if anyone will even notice that the government is shut down if that’s the only impacts. All the patients who hoped to get into clinical research trials. All the children benefiting from Head Start programs. All the federal court employees when their furloughs start in ten days. All the CDC employees tracking emerging disease vectors. All the first time home buyers hoping get federal mortgages - not to mention all the people trying to sell homes who got shafted a few years ago when the housing market collapsed. All the people who have vacations or trips planned to the national parks and monuments - not to mention all the people counting on tourists for their incomes. All the people who get sick from lack of food inspection - you do know that meat is not the only thing people eat, right? All the women with children who rely on federal assistance for their food and health programs - guess they should have had that abortion, right? All the people struggling to get by on food stamps. All the people working in industry and mechanical fields that rely on OSHA for safety and instructions. All the people who’ve ever been affected by earthquakes, volcano, water management or pollution. And yeah, the 800k employees who woke up this morning to find they’re out of a paycheck - not to mention all the businesses in their communities that were hoping those employees would pay bills there. Hardly anyone at all. No one who really matters, certainly. Hope you’re not going to need their votes for anything in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/63 "2013-10-01T15:30:10Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Our office has a pretty full workload, and is continually pressured to work down the “backlog”, while not being allowed to replace attrition. What do you do? Most government workers simply don’t do anything that we need or that’s the proper role of government to begin with. They might be busy, but so might a thousand people digging and filling ditches. That doesn’t mean they add value. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/64 "2013-10-01T15:31:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just months ago, conservatives were complaining at every opportunity that the unemployment rate was bogus, and that people should be paying attention to the number of under-employed individuals. > > With the stroke of midnight, we suddenly have hundreds of thousands of Americans who are civil servants in a non-emergency capacity who are not going to work and not earning a paycheck. Now, I see conservatives basically cheering on furloughs. > > Talk about duplicity: jobs are important to the economy except when there’s a political axe to grind. > [@Jas09](#): > > Those are government jobs, **Ravenman**. They don’t count. There’s nothing duplicitous about simultaneously wanting there to be a smaller government with less employees and wanting employment to be high in the private sector, your eye rolling aside. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/65 "2013-10-01T15:35:22Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > There’s nothing duplicitous about simultaneously wanting there to be a smaller government with less employees and wanting employment to be high in the private sector, your eye rolling aside. Well thank God then that under Obama we have seen decent private-sector job growth with most of the drag on employment being in the public sector. Cite: [Calculated Risk: Public and Private Sector Payroll Jobs: Bush and Obama](http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2013/04/public-and-private-sector-payroll-jobs.html) ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/66 "2013-10-01T15:35:59Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Hardly anyone at all. No one who really matters, certainly. > > Hope you’re not going to need their votes for anything in the near future. I won’t waste both our time by going through your list point by point. Suffice it to say that your entire list basically comes from the position that people are helpless and would literally die on a mass scale if the government wasn’t around to coddle them. Go ahead and post a cite from anyone dying from spoiled food or anything else during one of the other government shutdowns that happen quite regularly. The truth is that most people get along just fine without the government guiding their every decision and watching over their every move. Things will turn out just fine. You’ll see. We won’t be eating out of dumpsters or anything. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/67 "2013-10-01T15:36:26Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Will there be anyone around to enforce that? In the bigger parks, yes. The last I saw 3,266 people are exempted from the furlough and 2/3 of those are law enforcement, fire, and rescue. Roads will be gated, doors locked. So, if you are determined to hike in, or off road onto the park, you might be able to get away with it - or run the risk of being found by a very pissed of LE Ranger with nothing better to do. All in park concessions will be closed - and those people are not going to risk multi-year contracts to stay open. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/68 "2013-10-01T15:40:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I won’t waste both our time by going through your list point by point. Suffice it to say that your entire list basically comes from the position that people are helpless and would literally die on a mass scale if the government wasn’t around to coddle them. Go ahead and post a cite from anyone dying from spoiled food or anything else during one of the other government shutdowns that happen quite regularly. > > The truth is that most people get along just fine without the government guiding their every decision and watching over their every move. > > Things will turn out just fine. You’ll see. We won’t be eating out of dumpsters or anything. What? Since when has the issue been that in a government shutdown people will be “eating spoiled food?” I don’t even worry about spoiled food when my power’s been out for a couple days. I have a pantry. What I don’t have is the ability to pay my bills without a paycheck, or get services from providers who are closed, which is sort of more to the point than your fantasy scenarios about people digging through dumpsters for food or whatever. Your “oh come on, going without pay is no big whoop, we don’t need paychecks to survive” attitude is so oblivious I find it hard to take seriously. The reason you won’t go through Merneith’s list point by point is because you don’t have rebuttals to most of that stuff, and we all know it. I can’t believe anyone is seriously defending the government shutdown. (Well, I can. 27% crazification factor and all. But still.) ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/69 "2013-10-01T15:41:25Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Well thank God then that under Obama we have seen decent private-sector job growth with most of the drag on employment being in the public sector. > > Cite: [Calculated Risk: Public and Private Sector Payroll Jobs: Bush and Obama](http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2013/04/public-and-private-sector-payroll-jobs.html) Read your own cite. > [@](#): > > The recovery has been sluggish under Mr. Obama’s presidency too, and there were only 1,933,000 more private sector jobs at the end of Mr. Obama’s first term. That’s not **decent**. That’s weak. But yes, public sector jobs are down since Obama took office, and that’s a good thing. However, it’s not because of Obama. It’s mostly local and state workers that have been reduced, as your cite says if only you would read it. It would be a good thing for the federal government to follow suit and reduce jobs as the local and state governments already have. Of course, they don’t need to as much since the feds can simply print money to pay them and the states have to find a way to pay the bills. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/70 "2013-10-01T15:43:44Z")
All my neighbors will suffer. Most work for NASA. With NASA closed, all the associated space related businesses in my part if town will suffer, too. It sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/71 "2013-10-01T15:45:46Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > What? Since when has the issue been that in a government shutdown people will be “eating spoiled food?” Read the thread. It was in the very post I was responding to so it’s not that complicated. > [@Merneith](#): > > All the people who get sick from lack of food inspection - you do know that meat is not the only thing people eat, right? I’m not “defending” the government shutdown, whatever that means. I’m simply saying that the wailing and gnashing of teeth people are displaying over the shut down is an over reaction. People don’t need the government coddling them every day to survive. We can last a few weeks without Yellowstone being open and it won’t turn into the zombie apocalypse, I promise. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/72 "2013-10-01T15:46:07Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > There’s nothing duplicitous about simultaneously wanting there to be a smaller government with less employees and wanting employment to be high in the private sector, your eye rolling aside. Complaining about a poor economy while going to great lengths to damage the economy is not duplicitous? What would you call it then, ironic? ETA: In November 2008, at the height of the Great Recession, 803,000 people lost their jobs. At this moment, we’re looking at 800,000 Americans who are losing their paychecks. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/73 "2013-10-01T15:50:23Z")
Trust me, I read it. You apparently missed the sentence after the one you quoted: > [@](#): > > A couple of months into Mr. Obama’s second term, there are now 2,282,000 more private sector jobs than when he took office. We are a few months out from that now, I think the current number is almost 3 million. Federal jobs are down as well - that’s what “most” means, not all. The numbers I see indicate about 50k federal jobs eliminated as of August. Anyway, that’s a bit off topic. A report I heard indicated that one economic forecaster predicts a few week shutdown will shave about 0.3% off economic growth. Hooray! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/74 "2013-10-01T15:51:30Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > In the bigger parks, yes. The last I saw 3,266 people are exempted from the furlough and 2/3 of those are law enforcement, fire, and rescue. Roads will be gated, doors locked. > > So, if you are determined to hike in, or off road onto the park, you might be able to get away with it - or run the risk of being found by a very pissed of LE Ranger with nothing better to do. > > All in park concessions will be closed - and those people are not going to risk multi-year contracts to stay open. Thanks. Guess this isn’t a good time to raid Fort Knox then after all. This really does suck for tourists. I know how the wife and I planned our trip to the US East Coast months ahead of time. Postponing indefinitely would have been a nightmare. But I can’t imagine having gone and not seen some of the sites we saw. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/75 "2013-10-01T15:51:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > What do you do? > > Most government workers simply don’t do anything that we need or that’s the proper role of government to begin with. They might be busy, but so might a thousand people digging and filling ditches. That doesn’t mean they add value. I think you’re wrong about this. Right now, because of the shutdown, my government customer is at home. That means some Navy submarines are not getting the technical documentation for new systems, which means they can’t train their crew on the new systems, which means they’re less effective and more likely to risk injury or death when operating the system. I’d say that’s a proper role of government. And you’re ignoring the many, many other examples brought up in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/76 "2013-10-01T16:05:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > What do you do? > > Most government workers simply don’t do anything that we need or that’s the proper role of government to begin with. They might be busy, but so might a thousand people digging and filling ditches. That doesn’t mean they add value. If they aren’t doing useful jobs, then they should be fired. Why did we hire them in the first place? The way for that to happen is for Congress to pass a budget that allocates a certain budget for the department, and certain guidelines for how that budget is to be spent. Instead what we’ve done is pass a budget–excuse me, not a budget, a continuing resolution, the House can’t pass a budget any more–that allocates money for these jobs, and tax laws that collect a certain amount of taxes, and one number is higher than the other. Well, we can borrow the difference, except the Republicans refuse to allow us to borrow the difference. So we default. You Republicans run up the bills, and refuse to pay when the bill comes due. Oh, it’s the Democrats who run up the bills? Then pass a fucking budget that doesn’t run up the fucking bills. The Republicans refuse to do this? And why? Because the Tea Partiers depend on Social Security and Medicare, cut Social Security and they’ll go crazy. So that’s out, cutting defense is out because America Needs to be Strong…and, well, that’s almost all the budget right there. Trimming a million here and a million there in “wasteful spending” ain’t gonna balance the budget. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/77 "2013-10-01T16:10:29Z")
People will survive this, but most people will be financially hurt in big, small, direct and indirect ways for what? The rank stupidity of the shutdown blows me away. It can not possibly accomplish anything except to hurt Americans. “I will again state unequivocally that this is not something that we can succeed in, and that’s defunding Obamacare, because we don’t have 67 Republican votes in the Senate, which would be required to override a presidential veto.” - John McCain ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/78 "2013-10-01T16:13:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > There’s nothing duplicitous about simultaneously wanting there to be a smaller government with less employees and wanting employment to be high in the private sector, your eye rolling aside. If that is your obscure objective you need to argue its merit, convince people that you have a plan, run serious candidates focused on that plan and win control of the White House and a sixty seat majority in the Senate and keep the House. Once you accomplish that then begin to do whatever you want to get rid of Federal Employees and raise employment in the private sector. But until you have proven yourself and can manage to do it the right way, stop attempting to achieve your objective by holding government employees hostage and threatening to blow up the full faith and credit of the USA to block a law that you could not block through the normal democratic process. Listen to the people like Ted Cruz told you. 72% don’t want Republicans to shut the government down to block implementation of Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/79 "2013-10-01T16:19:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Listen to the people like Ted Cruz told you. 72% don’t want Republicans to shut the government down to block implementation of Obamacare. Leaving 28%. Remarkably close to the [crazification factor](http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/10/lunch-discussions-145-crazification.html), like I said. > [@](#): > > Obama vs. Alan Keyes. Keyes was from out of state, so you can eliminate any established political base; both candidates were black, so you can factor out racism; and Keyes was plainly, obviously, completely crazy. Batshit crazy. Head-trauma crazy. But 27% of the population of Illinois voted for him. They put party identification, personal prejudice, whatever ahead of rational judgement. Hell, even like 5% of Democrats voted for him. That’s crazy behaviour. I think you have to assume a 27% Crazification Factor in any population. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/80 "2013-10-01T16:20:23Z")
It’s fundamental ignorance to suggest that the shutdown will be benign, or that most federal workers are doing essentially make-work jobs. It really is. The last shutdown, which lasted 26 days, cost us 1.4 billion dollars, or 2.1 billion in today’s dollars. I’ve seen estimates that the present shutdown will cost us between $40 and $80 million a day, although when I searched again for that article, the one that came up first suggested a cost of $300 million per day: [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-09-30/shutdown-would-cost-u-dot-s-dot-economy-300-million-a-day-ihs-says) Remember when the GOP/conservatives were telling us that the number one threat to the economy was “uncertainty”? What the fuck do they think shutting the government down altogether creates? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=5)