# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/101 "2013-10-01T17:08:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Obamacare passed, but just barely. It was a completely partisan vote and is now a very unpopular law. This part is false- the individual provisions of the ACA are generally quite popular, and even when bundled together poll rather well. When named “Obamacare” a plurality might disapprove (though not by a huge margin, and the margin has been shrinking). Taking all this into account, it’s hardly a “very unpopular law”. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/102 "2013-10-01T17:12:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > How about this: Obama agrees to a one year delay on the condition that congress votes up or down on funding Obamacare again after the 2014 mid terms. How about not? The law passed. After the midterms, if the Republicans take Congress, they’ll have enough votes not to defund the ACA but to repeal it. If not, we’re right back where we started, and that’s pointless. The concept of continually delaying is simply a middleman. Cut that guy out and either fund it or repeal it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/103 "2013-10-01T17:12:50Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Not reasonable. Why should they pledge to support something they disagree with? > > How about this: Obama agrees to a one year delay on the condition that congress votes up or down on funding Obamacare again after the 2014 mid terms. > > Obamacare passed, but just barely. It was a completely partisan vote and is now a very unpopular law. It’s not the usual blocking and tackling of government we’re talking about here. It’s a major change. > > I see no problem with the Republicans fighting it any way they can. > > Of course, as has been pointed out it should be up for a vote, and given the current situation I’m sure it wouldn’t pass again like it did the first time. Also, as has been pointed out it’s likely that the shutdown is a strategic blunder that will blow up in the GOPs faces. So he should agree to another year of bad PR/bullshit from Republicans because…? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/104 "2013-10-01T17:13:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s a profoundly absurd point. > > If you just let me take your car, it’s not stealing. :rolleyes: It’s not absurd. If a shutdown is that bad, simply pass the resolution that the house put forth. Shutdown avoided. If Obama then wants to fund Obamacare, he better hope that the Democrats win enough seats in the mid terms to be able to pass a bill that does allow funding it. The House controls the purse strings. That’s a feature, not a bug. I agree that this situation isn’t a desirable one. But the circumstances are very unique. It’s rare for there to be such a set of circumstances: a game changing law that wouldn’t pass today, but did pass a while ago, but hasn’t been funded and hasn’t really kicked in yet, that the American people oppose, etc. It’s not as if this is happening every week. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/105 "2013-10-01T17:13:30Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > But you’re leaving out that Obama could end the shutdown immediately by allowing the defunding of Obamacare, so he’s not entirely without blame for this. This ignores that Obamacare is legally passed legislation. There is a democratic process to defund it but it does not involve shutting down the government. If Republicans cannot defund it - then make your case and win more electoral positions so that you can. This precedent of shutting down the government because a particular viewpoint does not get there way is a dangerous slope to go down. It can work both ways too, and we don’t want or need government that works like this. In the end nobody wins - we all just lose. Financially pretty much every American will hurt from this. Maybe you less than others - but it’s economic impact will be there. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/106 "2013-10-01T17:15:32Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > How about not? The law passed. > > After the midterms, if the Republicans take Congress, they’ll have enough votes not to defund the ACA but to repeal it. If not, we’re right back where we started, and that’s pointless. The concept of continually delaying is simply a middleman. Cut that guy out and either fund it or repeal it. The problem is that Obamacare is like all entitlements: Once put in place it will be impossible to repeal. That gives a special motivation to stop it that isn’t there for typical legislation. You can outlaw abortion tomorrow and then legalize it next week. Same goes for many other issues. But once you start handing out money it never get undone. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/107 "2013-10-01T17:16:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So he should agree to another year of bad PR/bullshit from Republicans because…? I’m not saying he would agree. You are the one that started throwing hypotheticals out there. I’m simply altering it to be a reasonable compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/108 "2013-10-01T17:17:36Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s not as if this is happening every week. All the better reason not to pay the Danegeld, lest this become a habit. If the Republicans think they can overturn already established law by shutting down the government they will do it over and over again. There is a way to overturn a law, and this isn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/109 "2013-10-01T17:18:07Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > This ignores that Obamacare is legally passed legislation. There is a democratic process to defund it but it does not involve shutting down the government. If Republicans cannot defund it - then make your case and win more electoral positions so that you can. > > This precedent of shutting down the government because a particular viewpoint does not get there way is a dangerous slope to go down. It can work both ways too, and we don’t want or need government that works like this. In the end nobody wins - we all just lose. Financially pretty much every American will hurt from this. Maybe you less than others - but it’s economic impact will be there. I agree with most of this. This isn’t an optimal situation, and I wish there were a better solution. However, this situation is unique and this legislation if not stopped now will never go away. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/110 "2013-10-01T17:22:49Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s not absurd. If a shutdown is that bad, simply pass the resolution that the house put forth. Shutdown avoided. So then the Republicans can get literally anything they want by threatening a shut down. That’s why this tactic must be opposed- just like you don’t negotiate with terrorists, because it might encourage more terrorism, you don’t negotiate with a party that threatens government shutdown and debt default, because it will encourage them to do it again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/111 "2013-10-01T17:25:08Z")
Basically, in strategic terms, the Democrats CANNOT give in- even negotiate- because then the Republicans will see this as a legitimate tactic and do it again. It doesn’t matter if the demands were very small- the Democrats can’t allow this tactic to be seen as legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/112 "2013-10-01T17:26:26Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s not absurd. If a shutdown is that bad, simply pass the resolution that the house put forth. Shutdown avoided. If he’s going to beat you super bad, just suck the rapist’s dick. It’s better for everyone. :rolleyes: Your position on this is pure nonsense. > [@](#): > > If Obama then wants to fund Obamacare, he better hope that the Democrats win enough seats in the mid terms to be able to pass a bill that does allow funding it. He has enough seats to fund it. One group is trying to turn the wheel and grind us into the guardrail, heedless of the damage it would cause. > [@](#): > > The House controls the purse strings. That’s a feature, not a bug. The House is bound to pay our debts and run the country. Not threaten to burn the house down every time they don’t get their way. > [@](#): > > I agree that this situation isn’t a desirable one. But the circumstances are very unique. It’s rare for there to be such a set of circumstances: a game changing law that wouldn’t pass today, but did pass a while ago, but hasn’t been funded and hasn’t really kicked in yet, that the American people oppose, etc. > > It’s not as if this is happening every week. Oh well then. By all means, hurt hundreds of thousands of people and damage the economy, so long as you only do it once in awhile. Also, check your polling, they don’t oppose it when informed about what it does. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/113 "2013-10-01T17:26:46Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The problem is that Obamacare is like all entitlements: Once put in place it will be impossible to repeal. If so, that’ll be due to massive popularity. Entitlements are hard to repeal because people like them, not because of some magical, innate property. And if Obamacare is really as unpopular as you claim, there should be no problem repealing it if/when the Republicans are in office. Otherwise, it actually does enjoy more popular support than the Republicans claim. And actually, this is the part I’m supremely confused by. Are Congressional Republicans convinced Obamacare will work or that it won’t? It seems like they’re arguing it both ways. That it will work so well that it can’t be repealed later. But also that it will fail so badly that they need to kill it now, now, now. Maybe they should make up their minds first. So again, either fund it or repeal it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/114 "2013-10-01T17:27:19Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > However, this situation is unique and this legislation if not stopped now will never go away. Unless your party ever wins a national election. A goal for which the extreme factions of the Republicans seem very anxious to ensure never happens again. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/115 "2013-10-01T17:48:14Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Read the thread. It was in the very post I was responding to so it’s not that complicated. > > > [@Merneith](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Merneith View Post > > All the people who get sick from lack of food inspection - you do know that meat is not the only thing people eat, right? > > I’m not “defending” the government shutdown, whatever that means. I’m simply saying that the wailing and gnashing of teeth people are displaying over the shut down is an over reaction. > > People don’t need the government coddling them every day to survive. We can last a few weeks without Yellowstone being open and it won’t turn into the zombie apocalypse, I promise. What I was refering to by that line was the part from the list which I posted - and you blew off - of agencies affected by the shutdown. Here is the section to which I was referring: > [@That list I posted on page 1](#): > > **FOOD SAFETY** > > The Food and Drug Administration would handle high-risk recalls **suspend most routine safety inspections**. Federal meat inspections would be expected to proceed as usual. I agree with Hentor’s take. It’s fundamental ignorance to pretend that the Food & Drug Administration’s regular safety inspections are pointless make-work jobs which no one really needs. I would say further that it’s laughably ignorant to characterize an understanding of the many functions of our government as “needing the government to guide our every move.” Let’s talk about the Food and Drug administration and what it does. Here is a short list of recalls with which the FDA was involved just last month. This is only the last month - the full list is here: [http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/default.htm](http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/default.htm) (apologies for the text formatting) ```auto Date Brand Name Product Description Reason/ Problem Company Details/ Photo 09/30/2013 Big Blue Fisheries, LLC Salmon, Cod The products may not have been properly cooked, potential to be contaminated with Clostridium botulinum 09/30/2013 AVEA AVEA® VENTILATOR Patient may receive a higher than expected tidal volume. 09/27/2013 Breeze C Scooter Breeze C Scooter Scooter may become unresponsive 09/26/2013 Safeway Angel Food Cakes Undeclared milk and soy Safeway 09/24/2013 Virilis Pro, PHUK, Prolifta Marketed as a dietary supplements for sexual enhancement Undeclared drug ingredients 09/23/2013 Badger Sunscreen Lotions Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Candida parapsilosis and Acremonium fungi. W.S. Badger Co., Inc. 09/21/2013 Market Pantry, Archer Farms, D'Amico And Sons, Roundy's, more Salads, slaw, and dip products Listeria monocytogenes 09/19/2013 Baxter Dual Luer Lock Caps loose particulate matter 09/19/2013 Wegmans Apple Cinnamon Mini Muffins Undeclared soy 09/18/2013 P.F. Chang's Frozen Appetizers Undeclared fish and shellfish 09/16/2013 Semifreddi's Biscotti Undeclared milk and soy Semifreddi's Inc. S 09/13/2013 Hospira 0.25% Bupivacaine HCl Injection & 0.75% Bupivacaine HCl Injection Particulates - Stainless Steel & Iron Oxide 09/13/2013 HeartSine Samaritan® 300/300P PAD public access defibrillators Potential early battery depletion 09/12/2013 Ge Pharma Dietary Supplement Contains 1,3 dimethylamylamine (DMAA) 09/12/2013 Dutch Valley Food Distributors, Inc. Honey Roasted Peanuts Undeclared Milk and Wheat Dutch Valley Food Distributors, Inc. 09/11/2013 Schwebel Baking Company Golden Rich Buns with Honey Undeclared Eggs 09/10/2013 Park Compounding Testoserone Cypionate (Sesame Oil) 200mg/ml Sterile 09/10/2013 Leiter's Bevacizumab and Lidocaine/phenylephrine Sterility Assurance 09/09/2013 Avella Bevacizumab 1.25 mg/0.05 mL PF and Vancomycin PF (BSS) 1% Sterility Assurance 09/09/2013 Talenti Talenti German Chocolate Cake Gelato Undeclared Almonds 09/09/2013 First Street Bakery Blueberry Muffin 14oz and Blueberry Loaf Cake 16oz. Undeclared Milk and Soy 09/06/2013 Equate (Wal-Mart), CVS, up & up (Target) Lubricant Eye Drops, Carboxymethylcellulose Sodium 0.5% Ophthalmic Solution Concerns regarding the effectiveness of the preservative 09/06/2013 University Compounding Pharmacy Testosterone Cypionate (Sesame Oil), Testosterone Cypionate/Testosterone Proprionate, PGE-1 NS, more Lack of assurance of sterility 09/06/2013 MOTRIN® Infants’ Drops Original Berry Flavor 1/2 fl oz bottles Particulate matter 09/06/2013 Pillsbury Pillsbury Cinnamon Rolls with Icing Pieces of Plastic General Mills 09/05/2013 Olde Cape Cod Olde Cape Cod Chipotle Ranch Salad Dressing, 16 oz Undeclared Milk and Egg 09/05/2013 Chobani Greek yogurt products Reports of bloated, swelled product Chobani, Inc. 09/04/2013 Hubbard Life Homestead Poultry feed Elevated calcium level Hubbard Feeds Inc. 09/04/2013 Medaus Pharmacy Testosterone CYP, Lipo injection with lidocaine, Taurine, more 09/03/2013 GoPicnic Brands Professor Zim Zam’s Extraordinary Sweets Dark Chocolate with Orange and Dark Chocolate with Sea Salt Undeclared Milk ``` Notice how many items on that list are _not_ meat? Oh, and hands up everyone who thinks all these companies would be announcing their product defects if no one was checking - because as we all know, a corporation’s first and only duty is to care for its customers, even if it cuts into the shareholder’s bottom line! While you’re at the FDA, notice that they are responsible for products in the following areas: Food Drugs Medical Devices Radiation-Emitting Products Vaccines, Blood & Biologics products Animal & Veternary Products Cosmetics Tobacco Product Still think it doesn’t matter if we skip the safety inspections for everything except meat products? Small government is not a plan - it’s a catchphrase. Real people have real problems, many of which are bigger than any one individual. A government is the way people join together to solve their problems as a team. The FDA is a government program which people have created to address the problem that each individual cannot test and trust every single item that is sold in the global market. The FDA tests the items and then reports their findings to the people. This is a proper government function for two reasons: first, because it addresses the common welfare of society in a way that each individual cannot do for him or herself and secondly, because it promotes commerce which generates wealth and trade for society that the people can purchase goods with confidence. Gutting the government’s ability to solve problems for the people and dismissing the real world consequences of doing so, all in order to cripple the government’s ability to implement a popular plan for improving the peoples’ health, all in service to some pointless and empty slogan - a slogan, mind you, that is fundamentally intended to disguise corporate greed behind myths of rugged individualism - frankly, this behavior is appalling, dishonest and deeply unAmerican. I could write a similar post about any other item on that list, of course, but really - who wants to hear it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/116 "2013-10-01T17:54:55Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Corrected that for you. You’re welcome. **Dinsdale** , please don’t change text inside of quote boxes. If you decide you absolutely must do a “fixed that for you,” just use quotation marks without the quote tags. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/117 "2013-10-01T17:55:08Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I agree with most of this. This isn’t an optimal situation, and I wish there were a better solution. However, this situation is unique and this legislation if not stopped now will never go away. The ends justify the means? ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/118 "2013-10-01T17:55:32Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Traffic was even worse than usual this morning. You’d think with at least a third of government employees staying home, you’d catch a break on the commute. Most have to go in today and sign furlough notices AFAIK. You’ll see traffic improve a little this evening and a little more tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/119 "2013-10-01T18:06:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If he’s going to beat you super bad, just suck the rapist’s dick. It’s better for everyone. :rolleyes: > > Your position on this is pure nonsense. You’ve got a rapists dick for an analogy and I’m the one spouting nonsense? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/120 "2013-10-01T18:17:03Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Still think it doesn’t matter if we skip the safety inspections for everything except meat products? Ok. You predict for me, specifically, what you think will happen as a result of the FDA suspending inspections for everything but meat. Let’s say the shutdown lasts a week. How many people do you predict will die? > [@](#): > > Small government is not a plan - it’s a catchphrase. There are plenty of instances where private entities do a better job than the government at things, and this includes lots of safety and inspection related tasks. Car safety standards are driven by the car manufacturers for instance, and the government regulations lag behind them and the system works just fine. If we got rid of the FDA people wouldn’t all just start getting sick everyday because of bad food. The private sector would take it over and probably end up doing a better job. > [@](#): > > Real people have real problems, many of which are bigger than any one individual. This is true, President Shepherd. > [@](#): > > A government is the way people join together to solve their problems as a team. Now you’re incorrect. Government is one way people join together to solve their problem as a team. There are also other ways, like corporations, non-profits, churches, and on and on. **Merneith** , your posts read like someone who only has a hammer and sees everything as a nail. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=7)