# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/141 "2013-10-01T19:28:41Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m glad you brought up social security. It’s a perfect example. It’s terribly conceived program. If it were designed well it would invest the money it takes in and then pay it out once it grew, the same way private sector investments work. That would make everyone involved in it rich. But instead, the impatient government set it up to immediately pay out what it takes in and pays on generation to the next. This ponzi scheme setup is a bad design in many ways. Yet people aren’t willing to change it because the ones collecting benefits are terrified of any change to the check they get in the mail every month… If you don’t even understand the difference between an income insurance program and a retirement investment program, your criticisms aren’t worth listening to. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/142 "2013-10-01T19:30:28Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > Cite? Your iPad analogy is baseless nonsense. You are insinuating that the electorate is incapable of realizing the difference between the rational and the irrational - and they will grasp at any bauble thrown their way as a permanent right. They will. My cite is Medicare, Social Security and the prescription drug plan Bush passed. Any law that gives away free stuff is difficult if not impossible to repeal. Do you have a cite of any entitlement ever given to the voters that was taken away once everyone started getting it? That never happens. > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that this program would be difficult to repeal? Citizens do have a basic concept of what the tax money is used for. Cite? Ask ten people on the street what percentage of their taxes go to what functions of government. You’ll realize most people are clueless. It was in the news today that only one out of eight uninsured people even know the exchanges were scheduled to open today. We’re giving them free stuff and they can’t be bothered to know when the program starts. > [@](#): > > According to the poll, just 12% of uninsured respondents knew that the exchanges will begin accepting applications on Tuesday, while about 14% guessed that the marketplaces will open sometime this year or in 2014 (“Wonkblog,” Washington Post, 9/28). Among all respondents, 64% said they did not know when the exchanges will open, 15% knew the correct date and 20% guessed specific but incorrect dates (Baker, “Healthwatch,” The Hill, 9/28). [cite](http://www.californiahealthline.org/articles/2013/9/30/polls-find-widespread-confusion-about-aca-insurance-exchanges) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/143 "2013-10-01T19:34:01Z")
They’ll find out. Aunt Rhoda will tell Uncle Fred, Uncle Fred will tell his barber, and so on and so forth. All to the good, actually, it forestalls any stampede that would gum up the works. It was wise to set this up so that there are several months of opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/144 "2013-10-01T19:35:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you don’t even understand the difference between an income insurance program and a retirement investment program, your criticisms aren’t worth listening to. You can toss whatever labels on it that make you feel good. But the reality remains that the returns Social Security pays out are an easily avoidable disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/145 "2013-10-01T19:40:19Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You can toss whatever labels on it that make you feel good. But the reality remains that the returns Social Security pays out are an easily avoidable disgrace. It isn’t an investment. It’s insurance. The policy on your car also has a poor rate of return. In other news, my cat makes a terrible horse. She’s small, can’t pull a carriage, and sleeps too much. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/146 "2013-10-01T19:43:44Z")
Yeah, sure, but you just try getting a horse to crap in a sandbox and bury it. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/147 "2013-10-01T19:46:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I said that if the Democrats win a majority in both houses then ACA will be funded. I’m not sure how you are inverting that So, you didn’t mean to imply “… but if Democrats _don’t_ win a majority in both houses, the ACA will be defunded”? Then why didn’t you just say “ACA will probably be funded regardless of who controls Congress” if that’s what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/148 "2013-10-01T19:47:02Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You can toss whatever labels on it that make you feel good. But the reality remains that the returns Social Security pays out are an easily avoidable disgrace. That’s exactly his point. Social security is not an investment program. It’s an income insurance program. It was never designed nor intended as an investment vehicle. You are demonstrating a significant lack of understanding on a very basic point. As for my assumption as to a basic level of rationality of the American population? I assume the average voter is smart enough to pick their legislators, who will reflect their constituents’ preferences. If that’s not smart enough, we have some deeper fundamental issues. Would I support a program to hand out free iPads? No. I don’t see the point. But should such a program be enacted, for good or ill, I would support funding it until such time it could be repealed. I wouldn’t support my congressman throwing a hissy fit, furloughing hundreds of thousands of workers (in a depressed economy, no less), and costing the country tens of billions of dollars, in what can only end as a failed attempt to bypass a properly enacted and defended law. If you’re worried about ruinous financial decisions, you’d have hated going into WWII. Wars, especially world spanning wars are ruinously expensive. But sometimes that price gets paid anyway for whatever reason. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/149 "2013-10-01T19:49:17Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You can toss whatever labels on it that make you feel good. But the reality remains that the returns Social Security pays out are an easily avoidable disgrace. Social Security is NOT AN INVESTMENT PROGRAM and should never be. If it were, you’d be bitching about “the gov’t choosing the winners and losers” and gov’t getting it’s hands involved in private business. You can’t have it both ways. Not to mention, you don’t want your SS funds beholden to the whims of the market. That would be idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/150 "2013-10-01T19:50:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It isn’t an investment. It’s insurance. The policy on your car also has a poor rate of return. This doesn’t make sense. Insurance is a type of investment. It’s like you’re saying “That thing in my driveway isn’t a truck! It’s a Ford!” ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/151 "2013-10-01T19:53:33Z")
> [@nate](#): > > You can’t have it both ways. Indeed. I can’t have it both my way and the way of the strawman you just constructed for me. > [@](#): > > Not to mention, you don’t want your SS funds beholden to the whims of the market. That would be idiotic. So every investment professional should just invest in Tbills, then? Since being beholden to the whims of the market is only for idiots? Just trying to nail down exactly how crazy this idea is, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/152 "2013-10-01T19:54:29Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This doesn’t make sense. Insurance is a type of investment. What’s the rate of return on your homeowners policy? Are you making fat stacks of cheese with all that cash that Allstate is giving to you? What percent are you earning on your car insurance? Because I have State Farm, and they haven’t sent me a dividend check in, like, _decades_. That’s why I’m thinking of changing. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/153 "2013-10-01T19:55:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Insurance is a type of investment. No it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/154 "2013-10-01T19:57:08Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > So, you didn’t mean to imply “… but if Democrats _don’t_ win a majority in both houses, the ACA will be defunded”? Then why didn’t you just say “ACA will probably be funded regardless of who controls Congress” if that’s what you meant? I don’t know where you are going with this nitpick/hijack or whatever it is. I’m being open and clear about what I’m saying. If you have a question just ask. But the two quotes you posted from me are in no way in conflict, despite however you are misreading them. I posted what I did because I was making the point that Obama did have choices here. He could have passed a budget and just let Obamacare be defunded. Then he could have funded it later when he had the votes to do so. I admit it’s the Republicans causing the shutdown by excluding Obamacare funding from their budget. But I’m just making the point that Obama did have a choice, as distasteful as it must have been for him. That’s it. Not sure how that’s confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/155 "2013-10-01T20:00:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What’s the rate of return on your homeowners policy? Are you making fat stacks of cheese with all that cash that Allstate is giving to you? > > What percent are you earning on your car insurance? Because I have State Farm, and they haven’t sent me a dividend check in, like, _decades_. That’s why I’m thinking of changing. > [@Skip](#): > > No it’s not. I don’t know how to break it to you guys but you are just straight up wrong on this one. Insurance is a type of investment. Usually, it’s doesn’t have an expected rate of return that is positive on it’s own. You don’t buy home insurance to get rich overnight. You buy it because as a portfolio together with your house they are a good investment together. (Your house is an investment too.) Something doesn’t need to pay dividends to be an investment. This is basic FIN101 stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/156 "2013-10-01T20:02:34Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know how to break it to you guys but you are just straight up wrong on this one. Insurance is a type of investment. Usually, it’s doesn’t have an expected rate of return that is positive on it’s own. You don’t buy home insurance to get rich overnight. You buy it because as a portfolio together with your house they are a good investment together. (Your house is an investment too.) > > Something doesn’t need to pay dividends to be an investment. > > This is basic FIN101 stuff. No, seriously, tell me how much money you’re making on your car insurance. Or your homeowner’s policy. Tell me all about how your insurance premiums are increasing your wealth. ETA: Or, tell me the circumstances under which someone gets rich on an insurance policy that they bought for themselves. Do you see a house burning down and think, “Wow, what a lucky duck! That dude is going to be swimming in money! That man is set for life now!” ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/157 "2013-10-01T20:05:03Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This doesn’t make sense. Insurance is a type of investment. > > It’s like you’re saying “That thing in my driveway isn’t a truck! It’s a Ford!” What kind of profit do you make off of your car insurance contract? Do they pay you dividends? You do not understand the difference between insurance and investment. Every post you make just underscores that fundamental lack of comprehension. The point of Social Security is to make sure ITS THERE, not to make profits. What would have happened to Social Security if it was privatized into the market before the crash of 2008 as the Republicans were pushing for? How would you explain that to the Senior Citizens who depend on that income to eat and pay their heating bill? Sorry but we gambled away your grocery money? Oopsie? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/158 "2013-10-01T20:07:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > … blow a 1.4 billion dollar hole in the economy! Not much of a hole really, more like a pinprick. $1.4B is like a few hours of government spending. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/159 "2013-10-01T20:07:20Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This is basic FIN101 stuff. It is, but you’re on the wrong side of it. Maybe you should revisit those textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/160 "2013-10-01T20:10:13Z")
Debaser, you’re probably right that Obamacare is here to stay. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be drastically modified in the future by a Republican government that has a better plan. That has to be the approach they take going forward. Get the votes, the electoral positions - and then gut it or change it. The shutdown nonsense won’t and shouldn’t change anything. It won’t because polls show people are not behind it right now, and because Obama has the legal and electoral authority to forge ahead. It shouldn’t because it is almost a form of economic terrorism that congress is performing to America right now - “do it our way or we all suffer”. Congress can’t govern that way - it is not right and the worst possible outcome would be the Dem’s caving to this kind of pressure such that both parties continue it as a regular tactic into the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=9)