# Run For the Hills! (Government Shutdown in Effect) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068 "2013-10-01T04:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/161 "2013-10-01T20:10:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > ETA: Or, tell me the circumstances under which someone gets rich on an insurance policy that they bought for themselves. Do you see a house burning down and think, “Wow, what a lucky duck! That dude is going to be swimming in money! That man is set for life now!” No, I think. “Wow, I hope that guy has insurance so he can buy a new house.” Since as I said, the value of insurance isn’t as a stand alone investment since the expected rate of return is generally low. However, the reason that it makes sense is that together with other investments they make a portfolio that does make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/162 "2013-10-01T20:15:24Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > the value of insurance isn’t as a stand alone investment since the expected rate of return is generally low. Yet this is exactly your criticism of Social Security **Insurance**. Why are you unable to see this obvious contradiction in your beliefs? Ideological blindness? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/163 "2013-10-01T20:17:19Z")
**Debaser** , insurance and investment are two different things. It’s OK to be wrong sometimes- we all are. See it as an opportunity to improve yourself. Alternately, you can insist (against all logic and reason) that they are different, so you can tell yourself that you’re right. But in the long run, wouldn’t it be easier and better for all of us if you just accept it? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/164 "2013-10-01T20:20:46Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Since as I said, the value of insurance isn’t as a stand alone investment since the expected rate of return is generally low. If, instead of buying car insurance, I decided to put my premiums in an index fund, would you expect my rate of return to be higher? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/165 "2013-10-01T20:25:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Debaser** , insurance and investment are two different things. :rolleyes: Of course they are different things. I’m not saying they are the exact same. But what is true is that insurance acts as an investment, generally in a portfolio with other investments. Or sometimes it can stand on it’s own. People buy Whole Life Insurance sometimes as a stand alone investment, although I wouldn’t recommend it. It’s silly to wave away the lack of a good return on Social Security by wailing that it’s an Insurance program, not an investment program. The fact that SS has low returns is a problem, and labeling it insurance rather than an investment doesn’t make that go away. Do you disagree that portfolioization is the reason that it makes sense for someone to buy insurance for their house? It’s about reducing the risk to one asset by purchasing the insurance. Anyway, this is a hijack that we should drop. The larger point is that Social Security is a good example of a program that is ill conceived that a lot of people wouldn’t participate in unless they were forced. Everyone on both sides admits that it’s got problems. Yet it’s very difficult to touch it at all since seniors are afraid of any changes to their checks. Just like it will be with Obamacare once people start getting benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/166 "2013-10-01T20:36:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not much of a hole really, more like a pinprick. $1.4B is like a few hours of government spending. Is that the relevant metric? The cite I linked to previously estimated that the impact of a shutdown of similar duration to the last one on our present economy would be between 0.9 and 1.4% annualized growth. News flash for you, cap’n, but that’s a pretty substantial portion of our anemic annual growth. In the analogy, you seem to be arguing that terrorism is okay if they only shoot you in the shoulder. Or perhaps it’s no big deal if they only kill a few people in a crowd of thousands. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/167 "2013-10-01T20:37:03Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Do you disagree that portfolioization is the reason that it makes sense for someone to buy insurance for their house? I have homeowners insurance so that if something happens to my house I am not homeless. Profits and investing don’t enter into it. I simply like having a house to live in and I want to ensure that this remains the case. Let me ask this again since you ignored it last time: What would have happened to Social Security if it was privatized into the market before the crash of 2008 as the Republicans were pushing for? How would you explain that to the Senior Citizens who depend on that income to eat and pay their heating bill? Sorry but we gambled away your grocery money? Oopsie? (Urkel) Did I do that? What would you say to them? I’m honestly curious. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/168 "2013-10-01T21:00:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Is that the relevant metric? The cite I linked to previously estimated that the impact of a shutdown of similar duration to the last one on our present economy would be between 0.9 and 1.4% annualized growth. > > News flash for you, cap’n, but that’s a pretty substantial portion of our anemic annual growth. > > In the analogy, you seem to be arguing that terrorism is okay if they only shoot you in the shoulder. Or perhaps it’s no big deal if they only kill a few people in a crowd of thousands. I didn’t read your linked cite. I read your post - the one that I quoted - that mentioned a $1.4B “hole in the economy”. If you’re telling me that your post was wrong (which appears to be what you’re telling me) then my point - that $1.4B is pocket change for the American government and the American economy - is moot. I’m not making any point about terrorists killing people. The Republicans aren’t terrorists and they’re not talking about shooting people “just in the shoulder”, so … analogy fail. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/169 "2013-10-01T21:04:11Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > What would have happened to Social Security if it was privatized into the market before the crash of 2008 as the Republicans were pushing for? How would you explain that to the Senior Citizens who depend on that income to eat and pay their heating bill? Sorry but we gambled away your grocery money? Oopsie? (Urkel) Did I do that? What would you say to them? I’m honestly curious. Apologies for continuing the hijack, but don’t most of the people who open a 401k or an IRA do so with the understanding that investing money in volatile markets incurs certain risks? Isn’t that basically what Bush wanted to turn a portion of SS into: a 401K or IRA, perhaps with additional limitations that further protected investments? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/170 "2013-10-01T21:11:24Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s silly to wave away the lack of a good return on Social Security by wailing that it’s an Insurance program, not an investment program. The fact that SS has low returns is a problem, and labeling it insurance rather than an investment doesn’t make that go away. You are unwilling to explain what great returns you get on your insurance policies. The only two options are: you are making money on your homeowners, health, and car insurance policies and you wish to keep it a secret; or you realize your error in that insurance is designed to mitigate risk and not prioritize profit and you want to keep that quiet. Either way, if you want to drop this hijack, I agree that you have found yourself in a hole and the digging should cease. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/171 "2013-10-01T21:21:56Z")
(emphasis mine) > [@Debaser](#): > > Yes, the law passed. But many of the major provisions of it haven’t yet taken effect. **They haven’t yet been paid for.** That is the cause of the language that bothers you so much. Yet another thing you’re wrong about in this thread as a point of fact is that the ACA deals with mandatory spending and other spending that was already authorized by said Act. The government shutdown, ironically, will do close to nothing to stop the roll-out of Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/172 "2013-10-01T21:51:17Z")
My impression was that the Teabaggers forced the shutdown with great regret, it being the only course left to roll-back Communism in the Land of the Free. :dubious: Yet reading OP, and the idiotic blather in related threads, it appears that the right-wing blowhards at SDMB are reveling in the shutdown, and hope that it lasts for a long while. To listen to them, the laid-off government workers had no function except to steal money from real Americans. I wish America’s media were competent enough to educate the Ignorati. Just as one of many examples that laying off a million workers will have adverse effect: [QUOTE=Wall St. Journal] At the National Institutes of Health, nearly three-quarters of the staff was furloughed. One result: director Francis Collins said about 200 patients who otherwise would be admitted to the NIH Clinical Center into clinical trials each week will be turned away. This includes about 30 children, most of them cancer patients, he said. [/QUOTE] Please note the source of this story. It isn’t from Marxist Islamo-atheist media like CNN; it comes from the Rupert-controlled WSJ. Almost everyone with common-sense and education have deserted the rabid Tea Party extremists by now. Let’s hope there will be light at the end of this insane tunnel. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/173 "2013-10-01T22:59:23Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > [Resident Juggalo]On behalf of the Insane Clown Posse I take offense to this statement. Although the Tea Party may be doing a rather enthusiastic take on “Fuck the World” they have nothing else in common with the Wicked Clowns.[/Resident Juggalo] Perhaps a bit late, but like magnets, how the fuck does a non-ironic modern ICP fan work? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/174 "2013-10-01T23:49:22Z")
Intermittently. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/175 "2013-10-02T00:03:53Z")
Ooh! Ooh! I wanna play Mean Conservative! > [@Merneith](#): > > All the patients who hoped to get into clinical research trials. It’s all about choices. These people decided to be sick. It’s not my problem they’re so desperate to live that they need the federal government to find cures for their strange (probably homosexual) diseases. > [@](#): > > All the children benefiting from Head Start programs. The brats need to learn now that there are no free lunches in life. Maybe this will learn 'em for being born out of wedlock. > [@](#): > > All the federal court employees when their furloughs start in ten days. If they had just gotten MBAs like their fathers had wanted them to, they wouldn’t be in this situation. > [@](#): > > All the CDC employees tracking emerging disease vectors. Why are we tracking vectors? Why can’t we just use rasters? They’re so much cheaper! > [@](#): > > All the first time home buyers hoping get federal mortgages - not to mention all the people trying to sell homes who got shafted a few years ago when the housing market collapsed. Once again, we all make choices. These people have no business begging the federal government for money to buy houses they can’t even afford. What, Section 8’s not good enough for these lazy bums? > [@](#): > > All the people who have vacations or trips planned to the national parks and monuments - not to mention all the people counting on tourists for their incomes. Boo-freakin’-hoo. Who told these people to make reservations so far in advance? And why would anyone want to go visit a national park anyway? We’ve got plenty of city and county parks that are just as good. National parks just give libruls an excuse to strap a kayak on their faggy Subarus and fart around in their Tevas. > [@](#): > > All the people who get sick from lack of food inspection - you do know that meat is not the only thing people eat, right? We don’t NEED food inspections. That’s what’s wrong with people today…we aren’t eating enough contamination! That’s why when I was a youngun, we didn’t have all these made-up diseases and disorders and such. And what better way to clear out the gene pool than to serve up a little E. coli and Salmonella? > [@](#): > > All the women with children who rely on federal assistance for their food and health programs - guess they should have had that abortion, right? > All the people struggling to get by on food stamps. I drove past the local WIC office this morning. I know what those women look like. Lemme tell you…ain’t none of them about to die of starvation any time soon! And their kids are just as fat. Maybe by the time this is all over with, we won’t have an obesity epidemic anymore. Maybe Michelle Obama will leave the rest of us alone! > [@](#): > > All the people working in industry and mechanical fields that rely on OSHA for safety and instructions. If a guy doesn’t want to work in “unsafe” conditions, he’s always free to leave and find employment somewhere. There’s a long line of guys who are willing to take his place. Maybe we’ll find out who the real men are. > [@](#): > > All the people who’ve ever been affected by earthquakes, volcano, water management or pollution. Boo-freakin’-hoo. They shoulda known better than to live in such dangerous places. They shoulda bought enough insurance. We all make choices. Homelessness will learn 'em. > [@](#): > > And yeah, the 800k employees who woke up this morning to find they’re out of a paycheck - not to mention all the businesses in their communities that were hoping those employees would pay bills there. Only communists work for the government. Only communist-sympathizers set up businesses to accommodate government employees. May they all burn in hell. > [@](#): > > Hope you’re not going to need their votes for anything in the near future. We’re just blame gonna everything on the libruls and hope no one is paying close enough attention. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/176 "2013-10-02T00:13:11Z")
_golf clap_ ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/177 "2013-10-02T01:00:49Z")
_eye roll_ Ponder this - if all of the areas/programs/people affected by this “shutdown” have been declared non-essential (as in, only “essential” personnel/programs will remain funded during this “crisis”), then why do they have jobs in the first place? Why are we funding/paying so many non-essential personnel/programs? Bear in mind, this is your sainted Administration making this distinction, not me. Well, no - I am too. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/178 "2013-10-02T01:05:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And how many of those shutdowns were to overturn an established law? You _do_ know that it is a law? Well - here is the Washington Post list: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/25/here-is-every-previous-government-shutdown-why-they-happened-and-how-they-ended/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/25/here-is-every-previous-government-shutdown-why-they-happened-and-how-they-ended/) ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/179 "2013-10-02T01:59:56Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Ponder this - if all of the areas/programs/people affected by this “shutdown” have been declared non-essential (as in, only “essential” personnel/programs will remain funded during this “crisis”), then why do they have jobs in the first place? Why are we funding/paying so many non-essential personnel/programs? Seriously? This is the argument you want to make? After the Hurricane Ike hit Houston, I was without power for a week. Would I have considered it “essential”? No. It’s something I could have temporarily done without in an emergency situation, as a massive multi-billion dollar damage hurricane clearly is. But it would still be important that I got electricity back. There are clearly several government positions that are not immediately critical but are clearly essential in the long term. And those kinds of things can be done temporarily without in an emergency situation - as an irresponsible legislature not providing funding clearly is. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068/180 "2013-10-02T02:12:28Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Seriously? This is the argument you want to make? > > After the Hurricane Ike hit Houston, I was without power for a week. > > Would I have considered it “essential”? No. It’s something I could have temporarily done without in an emergency situation, as a massive multi-billion dollar damage hurricane clearly is. > > But it would still be important that I got electricity back. > > There are clearly several government positions that are not immediately critical but are clearly essential in the long term. And those kinds of things can be done temporarily without in an emergency situation - as an irresponsible legislature not providing funding clearly is. Why yes, this is the argument I want to make. Essential means “essential” - to the individual at the micro-level, the State at the macro-level. You, as an individual, decide what you need to survive at your level - the State decides what it needs to survive at it’s level. If the State decides that these are not essential services and functions, who am I to disagree? And if there are so many non-essential functions, then why do we continue to fund them? Money better spent on the essentials, or in our own pockets… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/run-for-the-hills-government-shutdown-in-effect/670068.md?page=10)