# Runners vs Cyclists vs Speed Skaters **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413 "2020-07-05T21:44:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/21 "2020-07-06T15:47:09Z")
[From here.](https://figureskatingmargotzenaadeline.weebly.com/friction.html) > In order to ice skate, there must be as little friction as possible so that the skaters are able to glide over the ice so smoothly. Ice itself is not what is slippery, but rather the water on the ice. Underneath the blade of figure skates, there is a thin layer of water from the melted ice. When the blades of the skates glide over the ice, there is heat generated causing the ice to melt. The ice molecules loosen up creating an almost frictionless surface. This water then acts as a lubricant (something whose purpose is decreasing friction), resulting in smooth motion over the ice. The water molecules on the ice surface are in between a liquid and solid state, allowing such smooth motion. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/22 "2020-07-06T15:52:20Z")
That, and, anecdotally, when I’m coasting on my bike, I can hear the tires on the ground. Whereas, it’s basically silent when I’m coasting on skates. The sound the tires make must be an indicator of rolling friction, right? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/23 "2020-07-06T16:14:38Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The sound the tires make must be an indicator of rolling friction, right? The noise does indicate energy loss, but it’s likely from the tire coming into and out of contact with the pavement, rather than the tire deforming. Don’t racing bikes have very rigid tires, not at all like typical street tires, anyway? I believe most of the rolling friction in the bike will be due to the sliding of the bearings about the axle, since the bearings will have very small deformations. Also consider that the micro-layer of water between the skate and the ice costs energy to create. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/24 "2020-07-06T18:52:27Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The noise does indicate energy loss, but it’s likely from the tire coming into and out of contact with the pavement, rather than the tire deforming. Don’t racing bikes have very rigid tires, not at all like typical street tires, anyway? I believe most of the rolling friction in the bike will be due to the sliding of the bearings about the axle, since the bearings will have very small deformations. > > Also consider that the micro-layer of water between the skate and the ice costs energy to create. Track cyclists pump very skinny tires up to insane pressures - 19mm @ 160psi or thereabouts iirc. Road racing bikes used to approach this (23mm@120psi) but current wisdom is that “wider” tires at “lower” pressures (25-28mm@80psi) actually decreases rolling resistance on typical road surfaces because the tires deform over small irregularities rather than imparting an upwards force on the entire bike/rider system every time they hit a tiny bump. Velodromes, of course, are designed not to have bumps. Rolling resistance differences between variants of road bikes are all extremely minor compared to aerodynamic forces at 40kph/25mph, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/25 "2020-07-06T18:59:28Z")
My wife and kids used to speedskate. I remember them saying something along the lines of “Speedskating is the fastest you can go without a machine.” Like a bike, car, etc. As with most oval sports, they also said, “Go fast, turn left.” I forget what the lap times were for even decent regional club skaters, but they’d complete an indoors lap in some ridiculously low # of seconds/strokes. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/26 "2020-07-06T19:39:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I wonder if there’s enough info on old-style skates to compare them to cyclists. I’m not sure if there are other factors involved, but the wiki article says that the clap skate really started being used in the 1996/97 season. If you look at the [1000 meters world record progression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_1000_m_speed_skating_men) from 1980 to 1995 the record dropped a total of about 1.4 seconds. In the next 4 years it dropped a further 4 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/27 "2020-07-06T19:53:30Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Rolling resistance differences between variants of road bikes are all extremely minor compared to aerodynamic forces at 40kph/25mph, though. Yeah, I was going to say something like that. At the sorts of speeds we’re talking about wind resistance is all-important. [This](https://tunedintocycling.com/2014/06/28/aerodynamics-part-1-air-resistance/) has a nice little graph - at speeds above 25 mph wind resistance is off the charts. (Pun absolutely intended). j ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/28 "2020-07-06T21:48:31Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I remember them saying something along the lines of “Speedskating is the fastest you can go without a machine.” Like a bike, car, etc. Base jumping/cliff diving? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/29 "2020-07-06T22:17:46Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > Base jumping/cliff diving? Ha! Good one! I’ll see how they respond. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/30 "2020-07-06T22:41:11Z")
Whoops! Misread the leadup. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/31 "2020-07-06T23:06:39Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Ha! Good one! I’ll see how they respond. Come to think of it, how about downhill skiing or snowboarding? Would luge or bobsledding count? Zipline? All sorts of gravity powered things. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/32 "2020-07-07T00:55:13Z")
[quote=“Telemark, post:18, topic:914413, full:true”] > [@Pleonast](#): > > Not sure if that’s a “mechanical advantage” or not, but semantics aside it’s likely why the skater can keep up with the gearing of the bicycle. There is some technology that provides an advantage. > **[Clap skate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clap_skate)** > > The clap skate (also called clapper skates, clapskates, slap skates, slapskates, from Dutch klapschaatsⓘ) is a type of ice skate used in speed skating. Unlike in traditional skates where the blade is rigidly fixed to the boot, clap skates have the blade attached to the boot by a hinge at the front. This allows the blade to remain in contact with the ice longer, as the ankle can now be extended toward the end of the stroke, as well as for more natural movement, thereby distributing the energy of ... [/quote]I was there in Nagano for the 1998 Olympics as a guest of Visa, an Olympic sponsor and had front line seats watching record after record fall. [quote]NAGANO, Japan – What does progress sound like? Clap-clap-clap. That’s the new sound – and controversy – to hit speed skating at the Winter Olympics, as the athletes prepare to lace up their “clap skates” and lay waste to the record books.[/quote] Here is another [article.](https://web.archive.org/web/20200417041408/https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1998/SSK/) For some reason, I can’t read part of the text. [quote]Shortly before the Games, the Dutch team announced another technological improvement. Their suits were equipped with aerodynamic “strips”, which were said to give and advantage of up to one second per lap. Other countries appealed to the ISU to declare the strips illegal, but the governing body approved them just before the Games, leaving other countries to hastily copy the Dutch invention, some even by taping hand-made strips to their suits.[/quote] I went on the day they held the women’s finals and there was plenty of clapping – from the skates as well as the spectators! It was a very interesting experience. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/33 "2020-07-07T16:09:34Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > That, and, anecdotally, when I’m coasting on my bike, I can hear the tires on the ground. Whereas, it’s basically silent when I’m coasting on skates. [Sounds of ice skating](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3O9vNi-dkA&list=PLx3C-F_vt3dz72k7FUuw3qOM34PfKh2JM&index=39&t=0s) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/34 "2020-07-07T17:16:46Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > Come to think of it, how about downhill skiing or snowboarding? Would luge or bobsledding count? Zipline? All sorts of gravity powered things. I prolly shouldn’t have posted - SS was THEIR thing, not mine. Perhaps they had some sorta qualifier like “on a flat surface.” Sorry if my post took away from anyone that SSers are REALLY FAST. The starts are plenty loud - especially indoors shorttrack. Far different from the swoosh, swoosh from longtrack. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413/35 "2020-07-13T03:45:29Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > Yeah, I was going to say something like that. At the sorts of speeds we’re talking about wind resistance is all-important. [This](https://tunedintocycling.com/2014/06/28/aerodynamics-part-1-air-resistance/) has a nice little graph - at speeds above 25 mph wind resistance is off the charts. (Pun absolutely intended). > > j Interesting graph. I can put out ~275 watts for an hour which would give me a max sustained speed of a bit over 35 kph. This is about right I think. It also helps demonstrate the importance of drafting. A rider in the draft effectively has their air resistance curve shifted to the right and only a small shift in the curve will equate to a significant drop in power required to maintain the speed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/runners-vs-cyclists-vs-speed-skaters/914413.md?page=1)