# Running barefoot? 18 hours a day? And Native Americans outrunning horses? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 11, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560 "2004-05-11T02:44:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Llama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@The\_Llama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Llama)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/41 "2004-05-13T18:22:12Z")
**kabbes** I’m just saying they haven’t dominated as much as the men have over the years. If you look at the present world records as well as the top 2004 times so far, African women don’t have the same percentage of people in the top spots as the men do. However, I was just looking at the current world rankings, and the Africans have like 6 of the top 10 spots in the 5000m-10,000m rankings. I guess I wasn’t following the womens side as closely as I should be. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/42 "2004-05-13T21:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > You keep going on with this faster thing. Nobody is saying a human is faster. Really Epimeteus? You must be reading a different thread to everyone else becase in this thread somebody is saying: > [@](#): > > it’s simply easier to ride one long distances than walk/run it yourself, although you’d get there faster if you did Hmm, care to retract the claim that no one is saying that horses are faster? > [@](#): > > Well, I just gave some buddy. And bolded them. I linked to a site about ENDURANCE horse racing, saying the most they race the horses in a day is 100 miles. And then showed you a DOCUMENTED case- from a cite with strong references, of humans that ran over 170 miles without stopping. Umm, how exactly is that evidence that humans can outdistance a horse? You do know what outdistance means don’t you? “To outrun, especially in a long-distance race.” How does humans running 170 miles non-stop constitute evidence that a human can outrun a horse over 170km Epimetheus? I think the trouble is that you don’t know what the word outdistance even means. Epimetheus I really can’t understand what you are getting at. Over any distance at all from 500m to 500km a horse will always arrive at the finish line first. So at what point exactly do you think the human will outrun the horse? What evidence do you have that says that a human can outrun a horse in a long-distance race? If the horse reaches the finish line first that means it has outrun the human in that race doesn’t it? Your whole illogical train of thought makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/43 "2004-05-13T22:34:31Z")
Ok, then I will agree he is wrong. I still stand by that a human will overrun a horse though. As the cites I quoted support. My train of logic makes perfect sense, you are the one that is twisting it and ignoring what you feel is fit. A horse cannot run 170 miles straight. A human can. Therefore a human can overrun a horse. A human will run down a horse and kill him, a horse cannot run as far as a human can. A human is a better long distance runner. Get this: nowhere in my claims does it say a horse is faster, so stop conflating (deliberately or not) my posts with somebody elses. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/44 "2004-05-13T23:35:47Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Now, if you can show some cites, **or math or something** showing that a horse traveling at 14mph hour will always stay ahead of a man running 6 mph, if the horse needs to stop and rest every few hours … Lets take this how it is supposed to be- two days straight. Well that’s pretty easy - if the human runs non-stop for 48 hours (unlikely) he’ll cover 288 miles, or 144 miles in 24 hours. The horse would only have to run 10.3 hours per day to keep ahead permanently. If the human will catch up depends on how the horse times his breaks, but we’ll assume the horse isn’t stupid enough to to run 1 hour then sleep for 15 hours straight. For example the horse could run 4 hours, rest 2, run 4 hours, rest 2, run 3 hours, then sleep for 9 hours that night and _still_ be 10 miles ahead of the human when he woke up and started running the next day (having covered 154 miles in the first 24 hours). Every day after that the horse only gets further ahead. Plot it on XL - it’s easy. The only way the human could catch up to the horse over 48 hours is if the horse fell asleep and forgot he was being chased. But since he can run at least 4 hours straight, the horse just ain’t gonna get caught if he doesn’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/45 "2004-05-13T23:57:49Z")
Ok, I am missing a cite somewhere that says a horse can run for 4 hours. Did I miss it? Horses are built for speed, not distance. I am going to wait for a real cite, not some claim that a horse can run for 4 hours. Walk for 4 hours? Surely, but they are not traveling much more than 5 mph, and a human can run that. Why would you assume a horse, that is much more massive than say, an antelope, can run further and longer than them? Because that is what you are saying. Do you not think the Tarahumara can run down a horse, but can run down similar game? Or do you doubt those claims, and if you do, can you provide evidence against them. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/46 "2004-05-14T01:27:06Z")
Epimetheus do you want to try to answer the questions I asked rather than twisting everything from ‘outrunning’ to ‘overrunning’ ( a term which no one used before you introduced it)? Over any distance at all from 500m to 500km a horse will always arrive at the finish line first. So at what point exactly do you think the human will outrun the horse? What evidence do you have that says that a human can outrun a horse in a long-distance race? If the horse reaches the finish line first that means it has outrun the human in that race doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/47 "2004-05-14T01:34:15Z")
It is difficult trying to figure out some top level of endurance on a horse. It appears to [here](http://www.frankhopkins.com/horsesense2.html), that with a rider, picked out for endurance, horses in this race were able to run 60 miles a day for 30 days straight. From that site: > [@](#): > > “Some horses can do 60 miles a day; others will wilt at 35. Yet the 35-mile horse may look better, more enduring than the 60-mile animal. You can never tell. In the annals of horsemanship, there are a few endurance records that I think will always stand.” And > [@](#): > > "Then I once had a little white mare, purchased from the Government for three silver dollars. Her I once rode 90 miles in a day, let her rest twenty-four hours, rode her back the 90 miles. Afterward I learned that she was an exceptional endurance horse, famed for her staying qualities. Now of course these are probably at trots, not gallops or canters. A trot, as far as I can tell, is about [15km an hour](http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles/trot.htm). That is only about 9 miles per hour. Now I doubt a paniced horse is going to pace themselves. More than likely a horse will run to all get out and wear themselves out to get out of danger. Rest time and graze time will allow the humans to catch up, probably in the middle of it, the chase will go again. The horse will not just keep running, animals are cunning but they are stupid and easily forget that they are being chased. Look at horse trainers trying to catch a horse. The horse doesn’t take off at full gallop and run off into the sunset, it runs a short distance where it waits defensively. Now, if you are a horse expert and disagree, I will probably have to conceed, I am not a horse behaviorist, but some simple observation shows this to be the case. I still await cites for these claims of horses running 14 miles and hour or more for 4 hours. Or having more endurance than lighter and fleeter of animals, such as deer. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/48 "2004-05-14T01:39:35Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Epimetheus do you want to try to answer the questions I asked rather than twisting everything from ‘outrunning’ to ‘overrunning’ ( a term which no one used before you introduced it)? > > Over any distance at all from 500m to 500km a horse will always arrive at the finish line first. So at what point exactly do you think the human will outrun the horse? What evidence do you have that says that a human can outrun a horse in a long-distance race? If the horse reaches the finish line first that means it has outrun the human in that race doesn’t it? [Outrun](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=outrun&x=0&y=0)- to run faster than [Overrun](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=overrun&x=0&y=0)- to run or go beyond or past I use it because it is a distinction. I use it because that is what I am arguing. Of course a horse that is capable of running 28 mph will defeat a human only capable of about 7mph. In a mile long race. I am not arguing that a human can run faster than a horse. I am saying a human can run further than a horse. Longer than a horse. A horse will die of exhastion before a human does. That is what I am arguing, and you are arguing against it. I have cites, links, etc. You have nothing. Now, quit trying to say I am arguing that a horse can run faster than a horse. I am saying a human can run further. I have already shown you that a good endurance horse can only run about 90 miles in a day, and a good endurance human can run 170+ miles in a day. Now, are you saying that if in ONE day, a horse can only travel 90 miles, but a human can travel 170, the horse is going to win? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/49 "2004-05-14T01:50:24Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Now, quit trying to say I am arguing that a horse can run faster than a horse. Err, this should be a human can run faster than a horse. Ok, heres the answer to your quesiton, since you can’t infer it yourself: > [@](#): > > Umm, how exactly is that evidence that humans can outdistance a horse? You do know what outdistance means don’t you? “To outrun, especially in a long-distance race.” How does humans running 170 miles non-stop constitute evidence that a human can outrun a horse over 170km Epimetheus? I think the trouble is that you don’t know what the word outdistance even means. Let me spell it out. A horse is big, and heavy. A horse requires a tremendous amount of energy to move about, it can run at quick speeds, but cannot run for long distances. A human can travel long distances, but slowly. A human has been observed to travel 170 miles in one day, a good long distance race horse, bred for endurance, can travel about 90 miles in one day. Regardless of speed- no, in fact it probably would drastically drop if speed was increased. If a human can run 170 miles in one day, but a horse can travel 90, the human, at some point, has overrun the horse. QED. Was that so hard? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/50 "2004-05-14T02:19:20Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > That’ s just not true. Horses can’t run at all. They have four basic gaits to choose from and none of them called a run. A trot is a run insofar as there is a period in which no legs are in contact with the Earth. A trot is a run by any defintion and as you say they can sustain it for much more than 4 hours. You’re merely quibbling here. When non-horsepeople use the word ‘run’, they’re referring to the gallop, not to any other gaits; horses CANNOT gallop more than a couple of miles without having to stop and rest. (And horses have more than 4 gaits; they can also use pacing, various forms of single-footing/running walk, and cross-cantering. Walk, trot, canter, and gallop are the four major gaits, but they are not the only gaits horses use.) > [@Blake](#): > > And as for a trot not being much faster than jogging pace I calls bullshit on that as well. > > “The medium trot speed is about 4 meters per second, 240 meters per minute, about 1 km in four minutes, 15 km in one hour, hence twice the speed of walk. Well-conditioned carriage horses reach 375 m per minute and well-trained trotting horses do the mile well below two minutes.” Compare that to a very fast human jog of 19km/hr & a moderate human jog of 10km/hr. IOW a very fast horse will trot at 48km/hr and a moderate horse will trot at 15km/hr compared to a very fast human jogging at 19km/hr and a moderate human at 10km/hr. > > I would say that between 2.5 and 1.5X times faster is much faster. If human athletes started recording speeds over twice as fast we’d say they were running much faster. Wild horses are not carriage horses or Standardbred trotters (both of which must be fed substantial amounts of high-energy feed and exercized heavily in order to be able to produce high sustainable speeds). Wild horses spend most of their day grazing and moving at a walk or a slow jog; they’re nowhere near as fit as a carriage horse or a racehorse, and can’t sustain their speed over the same amount of distance that a racehorse can. And a horse moving only twice as fast as a human runner really isn’t moving “much faster”, in that the horse won’t gain much time to rest and graze before the human catches up - that’s what brings the animal to a halt. We can eat and drink on the run; a horse cannot. (You are aware that horsepeople regularly jog horses in hand in order to test soundness and show off their gaits to judges? You CAN keep up with an average horse’s trot, although you’ll be runing flat-out to do it.) > [@Blake](#): > > Honestly artemis, if you think that a horse can’t travel much faster than a human over distance then how do you account for the much faster times that horses record over all distances? Do you think they were flying? Carefully conditioned horses, fed abundant amounts of high-energy feed, are the ones capable of traveling long distances at speeds significantly faster than humans. Those aren’t the sort of horses the native Americans were running down; they were chasing after grass-fed ponies of average fitness, not carefully conditioned equine athletes. > [@Blake](#): > > I never had a problem with people running down horses. I had a problem with you assertion that horses can only run for 4 hours and can’t be pushed too hard. I didn’t assert that; another poster did. But that poster was right in one sense (although wrong in the particulars); horses DO have to stop and rest more frequently than you’d expect, even very fit ones. Endurance riders racing over distances of 50-100 miles must stop and allow their horses to rest multiple times during the course of the race. And after completion of a 50 mile ride, the horse won’t be fit for hard work for several days. Horses certainly cover considerable distances in the wild, but by and large they’re not moving quickly when they do it. They’re not really designed for sustained fast travel. > [@Blake](#): > > I also have a problem with your idea that only a horse trotting at speeds comparable to a human jog can travel for more than a few hours. Horses carrying riders on their backs cover 250km or more in 24 hours over rough terrain. Either those horses are travelling much faster than any human can jog or they are teleporting to the finish line. Doubt it all you like; the gait most used by endurance riders is in fact an ordinary trot (not all that fast). And most horses aren’t capable of carrying a human rider over 250 km in 24 hours; the ones which can are literally the equine equivalent of a top Olympic-level marathon runner. An ordinary nag is good for about 50 miles in a day (and that’s if pushed hard; he’ll be very tired the next day), and can only keep that pace up for about 3 days maximum. If you want to keep your horse working well for longer periods, you’ll have to settle for a mere 25-30 miles a day. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/51 "2004-05-14T02:21:26Z")
More [“evidence”](http://www.kidzworld.com/site/p1808.htm): > [@](#): > > Runner vs Horse > In February 2002, a long distance runner from the United States raced one of the world’s leading endurance race horses. The 50 mile (80 km) race across the desert in the United Arab Emirates was a photo finish. Tom Johnson beat the horse by just 10 seconds in a race that took five hours and 45 minutes to complete. Tom did have one big advantage in that he was able to eat and drink while he ran. The horse had to stop for 60 minutes during the race to eat, drink and have a short rest. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/52 "2004-05-14T02:44:15Z")
Epimetheus what the hell are you prattling on about? In my very first post I said that I don’t doubt that a fit human could run down a horse because of the stress factor. Now you go on about stressed horses being caught because they won’t pace themselves, which is in complete agreement with what I have said all along. However you haven’t in any way answered my question or provided evidence for your claim that people can outdistance a horse. Are you going to provide that evidence for the point that you contended? Or are you just going to stick to the red herring and argue a point that all your opponents acknowledged long before you even brought it up? > [@](#): > > I use it because it is a distinction. I use it because that is what I am arguing. In that case you are not arguing against me because I only said that a human can not outdistance a horse. You’re just arguing a strawman. I’ll leave you to it confident that what I said is perfectly correct. A human can not outrun a horse. If a human and a horse leave from the same starting point at the same time the human will always reach the finish linea after the horse no matter what distance the race is held over. A human will never outdistance a horse. > [@](#): > > a good long distance race horse, bred for endurance, can travel about 90 miles in one day. Oh what absolute piffle. You have made the wild a\*\*\*d assumption that because modern endurance rides organised with animal ethics committees only ride 90 miles/day that means that a horse can only travel 90miles/day. And of course that assumption makes an ass out of someone. If horses were allowed to be pushed as humans push themselves a horse will travel far more than 90 miles/day. “Dolly raced the first 75 miles, but the wagon train was long gone. Dolly had to race another 75 miles before they overtook the wagons. The mare travelled 150 miles in under 24 hours.” [http://www.equiworld.net/uk/ezine/0301/ahorseofcourse1.htm](http://www.equiworld.net/uk/ezine/0301/ahorseofcourse1.htm) Now we’d never be allowed to push a horse like that today, thank Og. But any moderately fit horse will manage that pace. I won’t go to deep into your other errors of comparing a human travelling 170kms on a track with the horse figures which are oven broken ground and rough terrain. Over similar terrain humans manage only around 100miles/day. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/53 "2004-05-14T02:48:16Z")
> [@](#): > > The horse had to stop for 60 minutes during the race to eat, drink and have a short rest. PMSL. I didn’t see this when I last posted, but it fits so beautifully with what I just said about your wild assumptions. Ethics guidelines forced the horse to stop for an hour in the middle of a 5 hour race and it still managed to cross the finish line at the same time as the man. And somehow this is evidence that a man can outrun a horse. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Llama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@The\_Llama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Llama)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/54 "2004-05-14T03:04:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Well that’s pretty easy - if the human runs non-stop for 48 hours (unlikely) he’ll cover 288 miles, or 144 miles in 24 hours. The horse would only have to run 10.3 hours per day to keep ahead permanently. If the human will catch up depends on how the horse times his breaks, but we’ll assume the horse isn’t stupid enough to to run 1 hour then sleep for 15 hours straight. That was awesome. Just thought I’d say that. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/55 "2004-05-14T03:05:32Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Epimetheus what the hell are you prattling on about? In my very first post I said that I don’t doubt that a fit human could run down a horse because of the stress factor. Now you go on about stressed horses being caught because they won’t pace themselves, which is in complete agreement with what I have said all along. However you haven’t in any way answered my question or provided evidence for your claim that people can outdistance a horse. Ok, this is getting old, do you even read my links, my quotes, or my posts? I linked several times, to many of my posts, I use hyperlink, so the ones that are blue and underlined are links, in case that is the problem. Otherwise we are going to have some issues. I most definately provided cites that people can outdistance a horse. I also answered your questions, TWICE. **Read my posts** > [@](#): > > Are you going to provide that evidence for the point that you contended? Or are you just going to stick to the red herring and argue a point that all your opponents acknowledged long before you even brought it up? Already provided links, already argued my point. Are you going to bother arguing against it, or are you just going to keep demanding that I offer cites, never acknowledging the ones I have already provided. > [@](#): > > In that case you are not arguing against me because I only said that a human can not outdistance a horse. You’re just arguing a strawman. I’ll leave you to it confident that what I said is perfectly correct. A human can not outrun a horse. If a human and a horse leave from the same starting point at the same time the human will always reach the finish linea after the horse no matter what distance the race is held over. A human will never outdistance a horse. Well, if you would bother to read my LAST post, you will see that I provide a link to an article in which a person did, indeed win a race against a horse. He beat the horse to the finish line by 10 seconds. The human, in this case, certainly did outdistance the horse. On preview I see you did see my link- you must have just ignored it until you saw something you could point out. Typical. It still proves nothing. A horse that runs for 5 hours and doesn’t get his rest is going to pass out, from dehydration or an electrolyte imbalance, even if he doesnt in 5 hours, he will definately in 10 hours. The humans will catch up. > [@](#): > > Oh what absolute piffle. You have made the wild a\*\*\*d assumption that because modern endurance rides organised with animal ethics committees only ride 90 miles/day that means that a horse can only travel 90miles/day. And of course that assumption makes an ass out of someone. If horses were allowed to be pushed as humans push themselves a horse will travel far more than 90 miles/day. The story I linked to about the 90 miles was done in the late 1800’s if you had bothered to read it. Hardly animal ethics committes. > [@](#): > > “Dolly raced the first 75 miles, but the wagon train was long gone. Dolly had to race another 75 miles before they overtook the wagons. The mare travelled 150 miles in under 24 hours.” > [Horses - A Horse of Course by Don Blazer - Equiworld - Equestrian Information on the internet](http://www.equiworld.net/uk/ezine/0301/ahorseofcourse1.htm) > > Now we’d never be allowed to push a horse like that today, thank Og. But any moderately fit horse will manage that pace. > > I won’t go to deep into your other errors of comparing a human travelling 170kms on a track with the horse figures which are oven broken ground and rough terrain. Over similar terrain humans manage only around 100miles/day. Artimis covered this pretty well in his last posts. No moderately fit horse could manage that pace. And the human traveled 170 MILES not kilometers. MILES, on rough terrain, in the high mountains of Mexico, approximately 1600 feet above sea level(and barefoot). **Read the links Blake** , it helps to make a coherent debate. Your cute story linked is hardly conclusive evidence. It is a tall tale, similar in vein to Paul Bunyan and Bessie. Neat, but blatently impossible. AGAIN, it is overrun, not outrun. Or did you not bother to read that part of my post either? I think you are being deliberately obtuse, is that it? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/56 "2004-05-14T03:08:36Z")
> [@](#): > > When non-horsepeople use the word ‘run’, they’re referring to the gallop, not to any other gaits I don’t know who these non-horsepeope are that use the term in that way but until you provide a refernce I will continure to call bullshit. > [@](#): > > And horses have more than 4 gaits…. Walk, trot, canter, and gallop are the four major gaits, but they are not the only gaits horses use.) Ahem. Did you not catch the bit where I clearly said “They have four basic gaits”? Grandmothers and eggs atermis. > [@](#): > > Wild horses [are] nowhere near as fit as a carriage horse or a racehorse, and can’t sustain their speed over the same amount of distance that a racehorse can. Well this is GQ so CITE! When you show the evidence we’ll discuss it. And remember it’s not just that they aren’t as fit, since opbviously thye won’t be. It needs to be evidence that they are nowhere near as fit. That to me means that they will be travelleing at least 50% slower so that your original comment that they can onlytrot at human jogging speed is supported. > [@](#): > > And a horse moving only twice as fast as a human runner really isn’t moving “much faster” Well you define much faster differently to most people. If someone said they would double the speed of my trip to work I’d say I was getting there much faster. > [@](#): > > An ordinary nag is good for about 50 miles in a day. Cite! What’s average? How are you defining this? Won’t even coment on triedness after the event since it’s totally irrelevant to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/57 "2004-05-14T03:12:45Z")
I think it is funny that you are calling cite on all of this, but have only provided one tall tale citation of yourself. Where are are your cites? I mean, you don’t even bother reading our links… ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/58 "2004-05-14T03:14:25Z")
Well Epimetheus since you are still sticking to that ‘overrun’ strawman I’ll leave you to it confident that what I said is perfectly correct. A human can not outrun a horse. That was the only claim I made. Your argument about overunning has nothing to do with me and frankly I can’t see who it isdirected at. No one but you has ever used the term. What I said is that humans can’t ooutrun a horse. A point that you contended but have been unable to support. Imstead you inist oin this ‘overrunning’ red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/59 "2004-05-14T03:20:50Z")
Blah, you need to read more carefully. Outrun is to run faster. A horse runs faster. This isn’t about speed. A cheetah runs fast too, but it can’t keep up for long periods of time. Overrun means to slowly gain on, and then surpass. I know, it is hard to see the sublte differences. Shades of grey, I suppose. :rolleyes: I am not arguing your case, I am saying that a human can outdistance a horse. A group of human hunters, such as Indians or other runners, could catch a horse by running it into the ground, by sheer endurance. If you are arguing that, then I agree with you, but your not. Your saying a horse is a super runner with great endurance. I am calling you on that. And the only cite you have offered is the Tall Tale of a french trader and some mythical horse. So you say this again, a human cannot outrun a horse. Wow, you convinced me, yup. Goes to show you that by merely repeating a claim over and over people will believe you. Who needs cites, just overrun the readers with repetition. Or should that be outrun your readers with repetition. Oh, but that difference would be a straman, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560/60 "2004-05-14T03:24:50Z")
Not that you would read it, but here is another cite, from [http://www.americanwest.com/trails/pages/ponyexp1.htm](http://www.americanwest.com/trails/pages/ponyexp1.htm) > [@](#): > > Rider Relay: > New riders took over every 75 to 100 miles. > Horse Relay: > Riders got a fresh horse every 10 to 15 miles. > Speed: > Horses traveled an average of 10 miles per hour. > Horses: > 400 horses purchased to stock the Pony Express route. Thoroughbreds, mustangs, > pintos, and Morgans were often used Now, why do you suppose riders got a fresh horse every 10-15 miles, they were only running at 10 mph… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/running-barefoot-18-hours-a-day-and-native-americans-outrunning-horses/244560.md?page=4)