Running out of Priests

Great Debates
21

I’d be a lot sadder to see them go if it were not for their role in hospital consolidation. Often they have run a hospital in an area and allow it to be bought up by another quite cheaply if the buyers just agree to a few restrictions. This has too often resulted in communities whose sole remaining hospital refuses to do abortions, sterilizations, deal with contraception etc. Telling their own congregation, contraception is wrong is one thing, depriving whole communities of reproductive choice is another.

Link to an exammple: http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n081600c.html

22

I was not able to discern any special idea from the Greek grammar. (It was not as if it actually said “of only one wife.”)

Interestingly, the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, while noting that the traditional interpretation has been the one that I noted against remarriage, indicates an interpretation much closer to MEB’s–that the overseer had to have demonstrated the ability to have run his own household. The NJBC even comments that marriage would have been the presumed condition of such a person. (I have not had time to run down all the notes to see whether I can find their support for that position.)

23

Well, a few less child molesters in society is a Good Thing.

24

A child molester who doesn’t join the priesthood is still a child molester.

That is, unless I’ve been whooshed.

25

I don’t see why females, married person and gays are presumed to be prone to become child molesters if ordained.

26

Shirley, I can’t speculate on why the Archdiocese hasn’t been willing to release his papers. If it’s been a while since anyone in your family has requested to see them, it might be worth the effort to try again.

As for why his papers went there in the first place, if he was ordained a diocesan priest for the Archdiocese of Toronto, he’d always remain subject to the Archbishop there, no matter where he might have travelled in the world on assignment. In addition, if he was an advisor to one of the Council Fathers at Vatican II, his papers would undoubtedly be invaluable to students of canon law. I do know that there is a seminary in Toronto that offers degrees in canon law, though I’m not positive of the name. The only one I could find a reference to online was St. Augustine’s. I do know for a fact, however, that the pastor of my home parish got his canon law degree in Toronto.

lee, I think this post could be the basis for a very interesting debate, but it’s not really connected to the discussion your OP opened up in this thread. To avoid hijacking things any further, perhaps you should start another thread on the topic?

Tom, which edition of the NJBC are you consulting? We have four or five here, and I’ve noticed that the interpretation offered for the same passage can vary widely depending on the exegete selected to write the commentary for a particular book. Last semester, I did a paper that involved comparing different interpretations of 1 Corinthians 11 and 14, and cited three separate interpretations from different editions of the NJBC

gobear, I’m not sure what spirit you meant that comment in, but I don’t think it offers any positive contribution to the discussion at hand. While the sexual misconduct of priests is horrifying, your blanket generalization is a huge slap in the face to the thousands of good priests throughout the world who never do anything of the sort.

This provides links to a number of documents from the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in response to sexual abuse by the clergy. I would particularly direct attention here for an interesting interview with Dr. Frederick Berlin of Johns Hopkins University on the nature of sexual abuse in the clergy, and the connection between celibacy and child molestation. Dr. Berlin’s qualifications are listed at the top of the article.

–Dan

27

Hm. I heard (can’t remember where though) that one of the reasons for celibate male priesthood is because priests are representives of Christ, they must be as He was- specifically unmarried men. It’s at least partially for the living, breathing symbol of Christ’s humanity…
Could be wrong.

“The test of all happiness is gratitude.”
-G. K. Chesterton

28

There was a lively thread that disappeared into the Black Hole, about whether or not Jesus was married. The argument was that a Rabbi who was not married would be considered unacceptable, therefore Jesus must have been. Countering this, others stated that since the bible mentioned no wife, he had no wife. The statement “absence of evidence is not evidence of absense” was made. Others points were debated. And now it’s gone! Gone forever! Sob!

OK, back to the topic

29

That is pretty much a later rationalization. As noted earlier, the whole approach to celibacy has not been consistent throughout church history, and has included both celibate and married clergy at different times and in different periods.

The church, for example, has never required that priests be limited to Jewish fishermen. (And Peter had a mother-in-law, which pretty much presupposes a wife.)

30

Excuse me, but did you just accuse the OP of hijacking her own thread? Don’t you think that that’s just a wee bit silly?

That aside, I think lee’s comment is highly pertinent to the thread. If you don’t want to discuss it, you don’t have to.

31

Theological Ninja, I think you will find that a specific example with cite of something mention in the OP is generaly not off topic. The cite I gave is an example of what I refferred to as “the church’s assault on reproductive rights.” Gobear’s commentswhile brief and arguably debatable are not innappropriate or off topic., and I hope that he expounds upon his views.

The OP was intentionally broad and a bit ambiguous. I want debate on all the topics mentioned thus far that relate to Catholic priests, the shortage of same, the feeling of posters about the Church and its clergy, the reasons for these feelings, and what should or should not be done relating to the above topics and and any whys relating to that.

32

And yet it remains the truth that, because of the Catholic Church, there are child molesters in society today who would most likely be in prison had the Catholic Church not protected them from criminal prosecution long enough for the statute of limitations on their offenses to expire. Furthermore, there is good cause to believe that having been molested as a child makes one far more likely to become a child molester oneself. It is therefore a very reasonable conclusion that the Catholic Church, by facilitating serial child molestation by its priests, is responsible for making at least some number of people into child molesters who might not otherwise have become such. That the Catholic Church officially condemns child molestation does not offer much solace in light of its historical practice of concealing and protecting those of its own who engage in it. It is hard to take seriously any organization which condemns a behavior on one hand and protects those who engage in it on the other. It is even more difficult when that organization professes to be the intermediary of ultimate good.

And if child molestation weren’t enough, what about the practice of keeping nuns as a source of safe sex partners for priests in areas with high STD rates? The Pope apologized for this practice last year, which was apparently commanded by the local bishop and carried on with the full knowledge of at least some of his superiors. How many other examples of such stark hypocrisy is the Catholic Church concealing from the light of truth?

33

I don’t think so. A “gage” isn’t a hand, but something you give to someone as a proof of good faith or as a guarantee (a kiss as a proof of love or in this case a property as a guarantee for a loan). I believe the word “mort” (death) refers to the fact that in case you would die, hence would be unable to pay back your loan, the property would revert to your creditor (My understanding is that this kind of “mortgage” was popular during the crusades, for knights who needed money to fund their equipment and journey but couldn’t be sure to ever come back alive).

So, IIRC, the original french “mortgage” was more or less the same thing than the modern english mortgage and has nothing to do with church property.

34

I sincerely apologize. I’d somehow managed to miss your reference to the “assault on reproductive rights” mentioned in the OP. It’s my fault for not having read more closely. Rather than opening a new avenue of discussion, it seems that you were rather trying to steer the thread back toward your original purpose. I certainly did not mean to be rude in suggesting that the question of Catholic hospitals limiting services based of religious ethical standards was a topic better suited to a separate thread. It was simply a consideration of organization to keep the progression of the debate clear. And since this is your thread, that consideration is yours to make, not mine, and I apologize again for overstepping myself.

35

Here in Chicagoland the opinion of Joseph Cardinal Bernadin was sought by the press whenever moral issues were in the news. He was looked to for moral guidance by many who were not Catholic. He served as a shepard and a teacher. It’s sad that so few bishops seem to play that role. Instead the representative of the church that I hear nowadays seldom explain why something is right or wrong, but rather just make pronouncements based on their authority that often seem heartless.

In its attempt to control the services provided by hospitals it no longer directly controls, the church affects not just its congregation, but to control everyone. That angers me.

I wonder if the Church’s heavy handed tactics and apparent lack of compassion for those who come into conflict with it and its priests has a negative impact on the number of boys who become priests.

36

Cite?

37

Da’hell? kellym, where on earth did you hear this?

As Tom said, CITE!!!

:rolleyes:

38

Nuns abused by priests
Pope Apologizes
Pope Apologizes Via E-mail for Sexual Abuse
Comitted by Priests

There is plenty more on this out there.

I don’t understand why it took the Pope five years to apologize to these women for the heinous acts committed by the Church’s representatives. And then only by e-mail. And the Church still hasn’t done anything more concrete than just apologize, even though many of these women were expelled from their orders for the offense of having been knocked up by a priest. (As the report indicates, generally the priests involved were subjected to far less severe discipline, usually at most reprimand or transfer.)

Should we add misogyny to the list of the Church’s crimes against humanity?

39

for current RCC debate re. inclusion of gays in the church:

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/073099/073099d.htm

the issue was a bokk “Building Bridges: Gay and Lesbian Reality and the Catholic Church”

for those wishing the short form: homosexual acts are “intrinsically evil”

as far as I can tell Ratzinger heads the department formerly known as the Inquisition - love it?

I will keep digging - it was in the Catholic Reporter that I heard of the report documenting the rape (and, if required, coerced abortion) of nuns - including a case in which a Mother Superior was requested to arrange the “services” of the Sisters for the local priesthood.

stay tuned.

40

happyheathen-one feels that you get a perverse sort of pleasure regarding any bad news or negative incidents involving the church.