# Rush Limbaugh--Atomic Bomb a "win-win" situation for Japan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 5, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796 "2005-08-05T21:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/41 "2005-08-06T13:23:08Z")
I’ve got a question that’s probably more suited to GD or GQ, but what the hell. What was the military significance of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the time of the bombings? I mean, other than expedience. As I understand it, both Eisenhower and Mac were opposed to using the bombs, because they didn’t think destroying those particular cities would have any real military value. On the other hand, I know that Hiroshima was a communications center, and Nagasaki a shipyard, at least earlier in the war. What gives? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/42 "2005-08-06T14:40:44Z")
I don’t agree with the basic premise – that it was a choice between nuking cities or an invasion. (Of course, this has been hashed out endlessly in previous threads.) There’s evidence Japan was ready to surrender weeks before August 6, on essentially the same conditions as the actual surrender. My feeling is that the purpose of the bombs was to make it clear that it was the U.S. and not the U.S.S.R. that was winning the Pacific War. Like the destruction of Dresden, it was unnecessary terrorism on an immense scale. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/43 "2005-08-06T15:05:19Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > There’s evidence Japan was ready to surrender weeks before August 6, on essentially the same conditions as the actual surrender. My feeling is that the purpose of the bombs was to make it clear that it was the U.S. and not the U.S.S.R. that was winning the Pacific War. Check out the editorial in the September "Armchair General"m where both the points you made are argued against. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/44 "2005-08-06T16:47:01Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > There’s evidence Japan was ready to surrender weeks before August 6, on essentially the same conditions as the actual surrender. Actually, there isn’t any such evidence. In fact, if a Cabinent member had even publically mentioned it, I have no doubt he would have been assasinated right then and there. Sure, there were some dudes very low down in the chain- who- without any authority at all- made some “peace feelers”. But that happened in Nazi Germany too. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/45 "2005-08-06T17:33:03Z")
> [@black455](#): > > I’ve got a question that’s probably more suited to GD or GQ, but what the hell. > > What was the military significance of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the time of the bombings? I mean, other than expedience. > > As I understand it, both Eisenhower and Mac were opposed to using the bombs, because they didn’t think destroying those particular cities would have any real military value. On the other hand, I know that Hiroshima was a communications center, and Nagasaki a shipyard, at least earlier in the war. > > What gives? From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki): > [@](#): > > At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable industrial and military significance. Some military camps were located nearby such as the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata’s 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was as a major supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was chosen as a target because it had not suffered damage from previous bombing raids, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. The city was mobilized for “all-out” war, with thousands of conscripted women, children and Koreans working in military offices, military factories and building demolition and with women and children training to resist any invading forc > [@](#): > > The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/46 "2005-08-06T17:35:48Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki): I don’t think he really wanted facts. Boy what a downer. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/47 "2005-08-06T18:34:13Z")
Although I agree with most of the posters that think it was justifiable to do so, the only shame IMHO will remain the fact that the zero target of the bombs was the center of the cities, had it had been the sea ports or the military factories then I would have been 100% in favor, as it was, the population center was the target. It has to be mentioned that the Hiroshima target, a small bridge in the middle of the city, was missed by only 800 feet. The target in Nagasaki was missed by over a mile, still leveling half the city. That mistake however saved hundreds of thousands of lives. I will always suspect that the bombardiers at Nagasaki, knowing then what this bomb could do, found a way to almost “miss” the city. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/48 "2005-08-06T18:38:52Z")
It was an act of evil. That’s all there is to it. Just ask yourselves if you’d be willing to burn your own children to death to stop a war. It is no more moral to burn someone else’s children than your own. I wish Americans would just admit that dropping the bomb was evil and move on. We’re not perfect. We did a shitty thing. Why is it so hard just to admit that? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/49 "2005-08-06T18:40:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It was an act of evil. That’s all there is to it. Just ask yourselves if you’d be willing to burn your own children to death to stop a war. It is no more moral to burn someone else’s children than your own. > > I wish Americans would just admit that dropping the bomb was evil and move on. We’re not perfect. We did a shitty thing. Why is it so hard just to admit that? Because most American don’t agree with your Logic. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/50 "2005-08-06T18:42:25Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Because most American don’t agree with your Logic. What’s wrong with my logic? What’s irrational is the need that Americans have to always try to justify themeselves as the good guys and never admit they can do anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/51 "2005-08-06T18:50:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What’s wrong with my logic? > > What’s irrational is the need that Americans have to always try to justify themeselves as the good guys and never admit they can do anything wrong. Yuor Logic: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It was an act of evil. That’s all there is to it. Just ask yourselves if you’d be willing to burn your own children to death to stop a war. It is no more moral to burn someone else’s children than your own. > > I wish Americans would just admit that dropping the bomb was evil and move on. We’re not perfect. We did a shitty thing. Why is it so hard just to admit that? Americans don’t tend to go Hiroshima was burning children; it was about ending the war quicker and on terms favorable to the USA. Your logic is not wrong, and is actually very nice. But on the day most Americans agree with you or better off most of the world agree with you, we will probably be able to achieve world peace. I apologize for the fact the shortness of my reply would lead you to think I disagreed with your logic. I just don’t think many people would follow your logic. Most people can’t even make the connection that we invaded Iraq on premise of fear of WMD. We seem to have proof that WMD intelligence was made up and so American public re-elected the President who started a borderline illegal war. (I will now done a helmet and flak jacket for my own defense from attacks for this statement) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/52 "2005-08-06T18:54:22Z")
Ok, I misunderstood you. My apologies. I know I have an unpopular opinion. I’ve been roasted for it before. Someone will be here shortly to tell me that burning those childrens saved billions of lives…BILLIONS, I tell you. The US won WW II largely by deliberately targeting civilians. When other people do that, we (rightly) call them “terrorists.” When America does it, it’s heroism. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/53 "2005-08-06T18:54:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What’s wrong with my logic? Its nonexistence. You made a simple assertion, and did not provide it with any logical backing whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/54 "2005-08-06T18:59:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The US won WW II largely by deliberately targeting civilians. Well, no, the Allies (be it the USA, UK, USSR, or whomever) won WWII largely by destroying the armed forces of Germany, Japan and their minor allies. The killing of civilians was part of it to be sure, but was certainly not the major route to victory. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/55 "2005-08-06T19:00:10Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Its nonexistence. You made a simple assertion, and did not provide it with any logical backing whatsoever. Yes I did. I asked if you would be willing to burn your own children to death to end a war. If your answer is no, then you have no right to burn anyone _else’s_ children to death. If your answer is yes, then you’re a fucking psychpath. So what is your answer, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/56 "2005-08-06T19:07:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Ok, I misunderstood you. My apologies. > > I know I have an unpopular opinion. I’ve been roasted for it before. Someone will be here shortly to tell me that burning those childrens saved billions of lives…BILLIONS, I tell you. > > The US won WW II largely by deliberately targeting civilians. When other people do that, we (rightly) call them “terrorists.” When America does it, it’s heroism. The Pacific war was about fighting enemies, Island by Island. Most people killed on both sides were military. By the time we were able to fire bomb Japan and then Nuke them, the bigger question to me is why a defeated Japan did not surrender until we resorted to terror tactics. I think we were in the right to use such means. War is HELL. Japan’s record on civilian treatment was amazingly bad. Ask Chinese and Koreans to this day about Japanese. They might even be secretly disappointed we didn’t nuke every Japanese city. Every debate has multiple sides. Every war has civilians being targeted and killed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/57 "2005-08-06T19:15:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, no, the Allies (be it the USA, UK, USSR, or whomever) won WWII largely by destroying the armed forces of Germany, Japan and their minor allies. The killing of civilians was part of it to be sure, but was certainly not the major route to victory. More civilians were killed by fire bombing cities in Germany and Japan than were killed in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. All told, the US killed something like 800,000 civilians (some estimates are higher). The demoralizing effects of our terroristic attacks on cities like Tokyo (100,000 dead civilians) and Dresden (400,000 dead civilians) were instrumental in ending the war. It was a deliberate and calculated strategy. And if it wasn’t a major route to victory, then how can it be justified? ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/58 "2005-08-06T19:57:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The demoralizing effects of our terroristic attacks on cities like … Dresden (400,000 dead civilians) Saith [url=]Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > The precise number of dead is difficult to ascertain and is not known. … Earlier reputable estimates varied from 25,000 to more than 60,000, but historians now view around 25,000-35,000 as the likely range. Not that it changes the significance of burning a city down very much, but those numbers are out by an order of magnitude. Your number for Tokyo agrees with Wikipedia, though. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/59 "2005-08-06T19:58:24Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Saith [ That’s from “[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing\_of\_Dresden]Bombing of Dresden in WWII](]Wikipedia[/url)” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796/60 "2005-08-06T20:02:58Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Saith [url=]Wikipedia: > Not that it changes the significance of burning a city down very much, but those numbers are out by an order of magnitude. Your number for Tokyo agrees with Wikipedia, though. From the same Wiki entry: > [@](#): > > Overall, Anglo-American bombing of German cities claimed ca. 400,000 civilian lives. It seems that I confused the overall number for Germany with the number for Dresden alone. Thanks for the correction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rush-limbaugh-atomic-bomb-a-win-win-situation-for-japan/315796.md?page=4)