That’s why I went straight for the insults. You’re wasting your time trying to get this moron to see reason.
You really are a loon on this subject aren’t you, Dio? There really is no point in even talking to you about this. On some subjects you are an intelligent and insightful poster…but on others you are just batshit crazy. This is one of them.
-XT
This is the thing that DtC posted this thread that REALLY has me steaming. The atomic bomb debate is a difficult and divisive one. I happen to think that dropping the bomb was (on the whole) the right decision. That does NOT make me some brain-dead jingoistic moron.
On this subject I’d have to agree with you…though I try and avoid insults as a first line even in The Pit. But he’s not reachable on this. Anyone who would make the bald statement that “We’re the ones who did the killing.” as if events happened in a vaccume (and not taking into account any other factors…like, oh, say that though killing 150,000 Japanese in the two cities is certainly not ideal, the estimated million plus deaths the Japanese WOULD have suffered, along with say half a million allied dead, is probably just a tad bit worse).
Its like argueing with a hard core fundamentalist about evolution…some folks just can’t be reached on some subjects. They are immune to facts, don’t care about other factors, and want to see the world as black and white. C’est la vie.
-XT
I’m going to try a scenario.
Terrorist kills dozens in a sneak attack, includes a few kids.
Terrorist flees back to home but police follow. He has a few comrades.
Along the way Police fight and kill comrades.
Terrorist makes it home but is now isolated. Just him, his wife, his mom and 6 kids.
FBI & Police surround house and demand his surrender. He not only refuses but shoots at the police.
Police warn him they will use brute force to get him out.
He refuses and shoots and kills a cop.
Police shoot bullets into house, miss the nut with the rifle but injure a child and the mother.
He still refuses to surrender and shoots another cop, thankfully not fatal. Cops have had enough and shoot a grenade in, blows up chunk of house, instantly killing 2 kids and wife. Terrorist finally surrenders.
The death of the children was solely the FBI’s fault?
Isn’t the Terrorist responsible for the possible over zealous use of extreme force?
Soley the FBI’s fault, yes. There is no need, in your scenario, to attack the house at all. They can just wait him out. Bombing the house makes them no better than he is.
You went to the insults because you had nothing else.
No, the information provided by Rickjay, Roddhill, and DrDeth isn’t classified, and I had though pretty widely known. The fact that you can keep up your idiocy despite this public knowledge being available for decades shows that any attempt by me to argue with you on any level would be a waste of my time.
It certainly was a waste of Rickjay’s, Roddhill’s, and DrDeth’s.
But go ahead, declare victory, have a wank, go nuts. :rolleyes:
Because I find the idea completely ludicrous. Most human beings with no combat experience will surrender in a heart beat. This Olympus Plan or whatever it’s called simply does not conform to the reality of how human beings will behave. It sounds to me like YOU need to believe this in order to justify the bombings.
However its appearent that you are immune to any arguement and will just keep babbling about “incinerate babies”
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That’s what it comes down to, isn’t it? That’s the part we can’t get around. I’m never going to say I think it’s ok to kill babies. Sue me.
The information wasn’t provided by YOU, though, was it, moron? All YOU can do is name call and hide behind smarter posters.
Ok, I know where you are coming from and completely disagree with you, but I respect your belief.
Not the same scenario, but I think I know what your answer would be to Waco and several other similar situations.
How about the USA civil war. Should the Union have just let the South Secede and continue slavery to avoid war?
I ask because I have become fascinated. I am a bit of a hawk and believe that war has done good along with great evil. I am not sure about your reaction to Civil war.
I predict 1 of 2 answers.
Union should have avoid war, they just wanted their own form of government or Union was right to stop slavery but Sherman’s march was overkill and unjustified.
If you would be so kind, please find time to answer this.
Everyone killing Dio, give him a break, he seems to be a true and very strong pacifist and truly lives in a different world than most of us.
I think the South had the right to secede. Slavery was evil but I think it should have been fought non-violently and that it would have ended in the south eventually anyway.
But you are speaking from ignorance. Olympic was the US plan for the initial invasion…it obviously had nothing to do with whatever plans the Japanese had. THEIR plan called for a series of deep bunkers and sighted artillary along the beaches they felt we would most likely invade (and they got them pretty much right). In addition they had husbanded something like 4000 aircraft for suicide runs at the fleet, boats and even subs for the same purpose. In addition they were training civilians how to attack the invaders with basically farm impliments.
As for the rest, it might not conform to YOUR reality, but unfortunately it does conform to actual reality. Its pretty obvious you haven’t a clue what happened on Okinawa do you…or what the ramifications of that were for any invasion actually touching the home islands. Like I said, this is like debating a flat earther or a UFO nut…or someone who rabidly believes that evolution is wrong and god created the world 4001 years ago on a tuesday.
I freely acknowledge that you are beyond reach and immune to any arguements on this subject. Its pointless to even attempt to unbury your head from the sand and the best thing is just to let you keep it there. As I recall the last time this debate happened in GD it was much the same thing. And I fully expect that the next time this subject comes up you will happily get beat up some more and claim a victory. :smack:
-XT
Wow, thank you for answering.
I would love to find a descendant of a salve that would agree with you. I am doubtful they could be found.
I hope someday humanity as a whole becomes as peaceful as you, but I know I will never be. Goodnight. I will bow out and allow naming calling to proceed unimpeded by me.
Oof: salve was suppose to be slave. I am way too tired. This was very interesting.
Just for the record, I was only claiming victory in the instances where I was being insulted without being substantively rebutted. I said I respect the points that many of you (pretty much everyone but Silentgoldfish) have made, and I meant it. I said you’ve made me think and you have. I respect your views on this. I will not call you immoral because of them. I just want to agree to disagree. I don’t want to pass judgement on anyone and I apologize if it seems like I’ve done that. I acknowledge that it’s not a simple issue.
It did seem that way (to me anyway)…and did seem that you were claiming victory in the debate by fiat. I agree with you that on this subject its best to agree to disagree and move on as it really is a complex tangle of really fucked up choices none of which were good. Its one of those ‘lesser of two evils’ kind of thing.
Its also one of those things that its really not helpful to apply our present day outlook on the actions of those folks who had a different set of standards and ‘morals’…if its ever appropriate at any time to judge historical events when filtered through our own morals and yardsticks. Just like today we blanche at 1900+ US dead in Iraq after 2+ years of fighting and Iraqi civilian/military/insurgent dead at something like 40,000+, during WWII there were BATTLES that saw that many dead and more…and air raids using conventional bombs that killed more civilians in a single nights bombing. It was a different time and place, with different standards and yardsticks…and it was a different war. Trying to judge the actions of the US or any other country is difficult…especially since you don’t seem to know many of the underlieing issues or events that caused the decisions that were made by the folks who were there.
-XT
I’m not a WWII buff. As knowledgeable as I may fancy myself in some areas, I have some huge black holes in others. I appreciate the information that you and others have provided in this area.
On an ironic note, I probably wouldn’t be here if it hadn’t been for the bomb. My maternal grandfather was one of those soldiers in the South Pacific who would have been involved in the invasion. My mom was a VJ baby. So if we hadn’t dropped those bombs, there wouldn’t be a Dio posting on this board.
I’m sure that’s bound to recalibrate a few opinions about this issue. 
No worries. As I said, I find you quite engaging on other subjects like the evolution debates. Generally I lurk only in those threads because I would only be repeating what everyone else (well, the rational folks anyway) is pretty much saying and adding nothing new to the debate…and because frankly I don’t know where you guys get the seemingly endless supplies of patients to keep debating these fools. But thats another story.
-XT
…even when they’re fighting to defend their homes and families from people they believe to be ruthless murderers?