# Russia and the Ukraine: Why should I care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067 "2022-02-24T19:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/43 "2022-02-26T13:55:33Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > To pile onto Taiwan, which is only the tip of the iceberg. China is already trying to make the south China Sea down to Indonesia part of its territory. Based on even lessor “historic” claims than Russia has on the Ukraine. I hear that Outer Manchuria is currently relatively undefended and that the current owner believes in “might makes right”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/44 "2022-02-26T15:20:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Whether or how to intervene in the Ukraine is a complicated matter and there might be no good answers. However any particular person comes out on that question is one thing. > > But, a good person should _care_ that the Ukrainian people are about to be subjected to the horrors of war and repression from an authoritarian power. A lot of people are going to suffer. That’s enough reason to care. That’s a good point. I read the op as asking why the US should intervene, and I’ve been struggling with that question (and, if I’m being honest, mostly just avoiding it, because it’s hard and i don’t think my opinion will have any influence anyway.) But of course I CARE. And while i don’t think i know any Ukrainians, i know a lot of people who do have personal ties to Ukraine. This doesn’t feel at all distant. > [@AK84](#): > > Wished you’d shown that concern for Iraqis, Palestinians, Afghans, Libyans, Syrians, Yemeni What on earth leads to to think any of us didn’t? In fact, unlike this situation, where I’m mostly hiding my head in the sand, i took personal steps in several of those to attempt to alleviate some little piece of the pain. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/45 "2022-02-26T16:11:02Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Well said. I also have co-workers in Ukraine, SunSon was chatting online earlier this week with some gamers about the impending release of Elden Ring. One of them said in the chat “I won’t be able to play when it comes out Friday because I just got called up.” Yep, he’s Ukrainian. Hope and pray he’s OK. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I hear that Outer Manchuria is currently relatively undefended and that the current owner believes in “might makes right”. Heck, the whole Russian Far East has an awful lot of elbow room, if you know what I mean… If Russia’s economy goes into the tank for a long time as a result of this invasion, you might have a sale to make Seward’s Folly look like a dollar-store bargain. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/46 "2022-02-26T19:36:37Z")
Outer Manchuria has not historically been part of the greater Chinese empire. Easy enough to fabricate though, and Putin has to be nervous about all the Chinese that have come to the Russian Far East in the past two decades. China has a greater claim to Outer Mongolia. Not sure when Taiwan officially removed Mongolia from their maps of “China”. probably in the 2000’s? The official KMT map included Outer Mongolia, and IIRC some parts of the Himalayan regions that are more considered to be part of Nepal or India. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/47 "2022-02-26T19:46:37Z")
Some old maps of China, here: > **[Why don't most Qing Dynasty maps include Outer Manchuria?](https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-most-Qing-Dynasty-maps-include-Outer-Manchuria)** > > Answer (1 of 3): Because most maps people use are of the Qing Dynasty right before it collapsed, in 1911. Here’s a map of the empire at its greatest extent, highlighting areas lost to Russia. > > The light orange areas were lost to Russia in the 1858... ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/48 "2022-02-26T20:16:05Z")
I’ve started to post in this thread a few times, but I found I was too upset to be very coherent. I have two friends I’ve been worried about. One is an American who lived in Moscow before fleeing to Ukraine, where he’s lived for the last 10 years or so. I’ve heard from him. The other is Ukrainian and lives in Kyiv. I’m worried sick about her. So obviously for me, this is personal, and there are obvious reasons to care. But I’m not the OP. I guess if we have to ask why we should care, there may be no reason sufficiently compelling. If we only care about whatever immediately affects our wallets or sits on our own doorstep, very little would convince us that the Ukraine crisis–or any crisis, no matter how intense the suffering, as long as it’s not our own–is worth caring about. We define ourselves equally by what we hold dear and what we don’t, what we’re willing to sacrifice and what we’re not. That’s the way I see it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/49 "2022-02-27T05:20:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The OP and Putin share one thing in common: they seem to think that, if it’s people over there dying, it doesn’t really matter to them. Hence we have to come up with reasons other than loss of life to get them to care. Nice assumption. Try reading the OP please. Here, I’ll repeat the relevant part: > I am dubious about any conflicts that America gets into in the name of humanitarianism because our track record shows that is usually an excuse to pick a side while not caring about issues that arise when allies are involved. When an ally such as Saudi Arabia or Israel kill people, how does the US react? Why do we respond differently? I can care very much about all of them but also wonder why my country cares about some but not others. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/50 "2022-02-27T08:00:24Z")
So the answer is to not care about anything at all then. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/51 "2022-02-27T16:45:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > But, a good person should _care_ that the Ukrainian people are about to be subjected to the horrors of war and repression from an authoritarian power. A lot of people are going to suffer. That’s enough reason to care. > > ALL ABOARD! > Wished you’d shown that concern for Iraqis, Palestinians, Afghans, Libyans, Syrians, Yemeni I shouldn’t need to point it out, but the US position is that those people were / are still suffering under the repression of an authoritarian power. Volodomyr Zelensky ≠ Saddam Hussein, Qadaffi, Bashar Assad, the Taliban, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/52 "2022-02-27T20:08:47Z")
My response to the OP that the UN Charter established the principle that national borders and political independence are inviolable by use of force: > [@](#): > > **Article 2** > 4. All Members shall refrain in their [international relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations) from the **[threat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_of_force) or [use of force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force) against the [territorial integrity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_integrity) or [political independence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_independence) of any state** , or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations. That is a significant, major change in international law, and it has been remarkably successful, for example by the fact that this is the first major land war in Europe, designed to change boundaries by a major power, since the end of WWII. That principle has also helped to keep the peace in other parts of the world — not so much because of an “it’s the law” but because countries by and large accepted it. There have been exceptions, of course — notably Gulf War II, and the Great Congo War. But by and large, that change in the way nations think about territorial integrity has been extremely important. But if Putin succeeds, that principle is in major trouble, and the world becomes a much more dangerous place. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/53 "2022-02-27T22:10:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > … the world becomes a much more dangerous place. That sums it up, really. I’ll grant the OP that the West often uses concern over human rights and atrocities selectively, as it serves their other vital interests. That’s not whataboutism; it is a lack of naivete. “The game” between the major powers internationally, and in Europe in particular, has been one of global economic power and influence. Russia has not been winning at it (albeit before this Nord Stream was going to raise their game some). They do not have a powerful economy. They have been not only becoming the distant third superpower; they have been becoming a former superpower. But they do have a powerful land based army. If they can get a major win without offsetting major costs by saying to hell with economic tools, just take it by force, then exactly as above. Problem is that the aftermath of this, even with some facesaving aspects, weakens their strength in the economic/diplomatic strength realm so much that they may be left as a virtual vassal state for China. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/54 "2022-02-27T22:14:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Problem is that the aftermath of this, even with some facesaving aspects, weakens their strength in the economic/diplomatic strength realm so much that they may be left as a virtual vassal state for China. Exactly. It’s also going to redirect the US and the wests attention to Europe and Russia and away from China. That’s only natural and pretty much inevitable…but it’s going to help China and hurt Russia even more. And it’s going to make Russia more dependent on China than ever. Russia has been moving in this direction anyway, but with this…assuming Putin et al survives this…it’s going to seal the deal and make Russia fully in China’s orbit. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/55 "2022-03-02T01:41:35Z")
China and Russia are frenemies. No love lost between the two. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067/56 "2022-03-02T13:48:28Z")
That’s true…to a degree. But it doesn’t really matter, to a degree. Both nations have their own goals, and both know their major goals aren’t supported by the US and its alliance system. Both see each other as a partner in this. That’s all fairly obvious, seeing how things have moved between the two countries in the last, oh, say 10-15 years, but especially in the past 5. China is also drawing Russia more tightly into its orbit, and Russia is willingly going there…mainly due to NATO, the EU, and the US. But also because Russia, in its current configuration and government, with its high levels of corruption and oligarchy structure, simply can’t compete economically. Its economy is a one-trick pony…energy exports. It needs China as a counterbalance to the west and needs China to buy its products and sell them the ones they can’t make. And, going forward, the ones they will no longer be able to buy from the west if all this sanction stuff starts to really bite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-and-the-ukraine-why-should-i-care/960067.md?page=2)