# Russia backs independence for Ossetia and Abkhazia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192 "2008-08-25T14:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/1 "2008-08-25T14:04:30Z")
[BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7580386.stm) article. How should the West react? Would it not be hypocritical to deny them independence after the recent events in the Balkans? If we do permit it, are we storing up trouble for when South Ossetia wants to join with North Ossetia? Perhaps we could turn it around and invite the new countries to start the process of joining the EU? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/2 "2008-08-25T15:28:39Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Would it not be hypocritical to deny them independence after the recent events in the Balkans? [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, yes, which is why we’re screwed. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/3 "2008-08-25T15:29:26Z")
As painfully mixed as Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo are, South Ossetia isn’t. It’s mixed all right, just not as much (I can’t find good data, but I think Georgians are actually a majority there!). Russia really wants to annex Ossetia, and this will simply cause the same problem down the line, as the Georgians get pissed at Russian domination and revolt. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/4 "2008-08-25T16:00:24Z")
I’m wondering now if the Russian Gov’t will happily let Chechnya go, since they are so concerned about making ethnic minorities happy. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/5 "2008-08-26T12:53:44Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] As painfully mixed as Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo are, South Ossetia isn’t. It’s mixed all right, just not as much (I can’t find good data, but I think Georgians are actually a majority there!). [/QUOTE] According to wikipedia, Ossetians outnumber Georgians by two-to-one. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/6 "2008-08-26T15:08:42Z")
Does anyone remember how the Russians [unilaterally “joined”](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E7D91538F931A25755C0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) the peacekeeping force in Kosovo in 1999? Maybe give it a few more weeks and Bush will come up with something similarly subtle? ---
**Author:** ![KRSOradio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/0ea827/32.png) [@KRSOradio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KRSOradio)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/7 "2008-08-27T02:37:57Z")
If NATO can bomb Serbia and take Kosovo away, then the Russians can do the same thing. You can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2008, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/8 "2008-08-28T11:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=KRSOradio] If NATO can bomb Serbia and take Kosovo away, then the Russians can do the same thing. You can’t have it both ways. [/QUOTE] Which is precisely what the Russians said at the time - explicitly referencing South Ossetia. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/9 "2008-08-28T15:34:59Z")
In Russia, national liberation armies gang-rape YOU! ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/10 "2008-08-28T15:58:55Z")
Putin is now saying the US orchestrated the conflict to benefit one of the presidential candidates and that Russia then had no choice but to invade. Strange, I’d always thought him bright before. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/11 "2008-08-28T22:17:56Z")
[QUOTE=lieu] Putin is now saying the US orchestrated the conflict to benefit one of the presidential candidates and that Russia then had no choice but to invade. Strange, I’d always thought him bright before. [/QUOTE] Well, think about it this way: -Russians who never got over their suspicions of the west will believe him -He didn’t name _which_ presidential candidate. What do you think the odds are that it’ll turn out to have been whichever one won? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/12 "2008-08-29T00:07:12Z")
What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I support the independence of Abkhazia or South Ossetia, even their annexation into Russia, so long as a 75% super-majority in the relevant district agree. And the same for Chechen secession from Russia, & any Tatars that want to leave, same deal. Without the latter, however, Putin can go suck eggs. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/13 "2008-09-03T12:09:53Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > Putin is now saying the US orchestrated the conflict to benefit one of the presidential candidates and that Russia then had no choice but to invade. Strange, I’d always thought him bright before. In the CNN interview I watched with Putin, he only put this forward as food for thought and not as a fact. He said that there were grounds to suspect that it could be so, and calls it a hypothesis. Part two of the interview covers that issue. [CNN interview part 1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwC5q-zMQnw&feature=PlayList&p=5DD7EE57C9882ACC&index=0) [CNN interview part 2](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMKNmW_9C5o&feature=PlayList&p=5DD7EE57C9882ACC&index=1) [CNN interview part 3](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VsNFEZKmgo&feature=PlayList&p=5DD7EE57C9882ACC&index=2) Did he present it as anything more than that somewhere else? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/14 "2008-09-03T13:03:16Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > In the CNN interview I watched with Putin, he only put this forward as food for thought and not as a fact. He said that there were grounds to suspect that it could be so, and calls it a hypothesis. Part two of the interview covers that issue. > > [CNN interview part 1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwC5q-zMQnw&feature=PlayList&p=5DD7EE57C9882ACC&index=0) > [CNN interview part 2](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMKNmW_9C5o&feature=PlayList&p=5DD7EE57C9882ACC&index=1) > [CNN interview part 3](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VsNFEZKmgo&feature=PlayList&p=5DD7EE57C9882ACC&index=2) > > Did he present it as anything more than that somewhere else? One of McCain’s chief strategists lobby firm had the Georgia contract. [Aide advises while Firm lobbies](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html) > [@](#): > > Sen. John McCain’s top foreign policy adviser prepped his boss for an April 17 phone call with the president of Georgia and then helped the presumptive Republican presidential nominee prepare a strong statement of support for the fledgling republic. > > The day of the call, a lobbying firm partly owned by the adviser, Randy Scheunemann, signed a $200,000 contract to continue providing strategic advice to the Georgian government in Washington. > > The McCain campaign said Georgia’s lobbying contract with Orion Strategies had no bearing on the candidate’s decision to speak with President Mikheil Saakashvili and did not influence his statement. “The Embassy of Georgia requested the call,” said campaign spokesman Brian Rogers. Yea - sure they did. Of course it was Wag The Dog. Does anyone seriously believe Georgia started a war with Russia off its own bat? Without a US nod and a wink? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/15 "2008-09-03T14:08:22Z")
> [@KRSOradio](#): > > If NATO can bomb Serbia and take Kosovo away, then the Russians can do the same thing. You can’t have it both ways. :dubious: So, what’s the equivalent of the Racak massacre in South Ossetia (and no, ridiculous casualty reports in South Ossetia from Russian sources aren’t particularly convincing)? NATO didn’t just “bomb Serbia” on a whim—don’t be so facile. It seems like there’s a lot of equivocation between situations that bear only a small degree of similarity. NATO intervention in the Balkans—Europe’s tinderbox—to prevent atrocities, and drive out a megolomaniac, somehow justifies massive Russian intervention in a situation they themselves have been fomenting? Er no. As for “you can’t have it both ways”, well, isn’t this exactly what the Russians are themselves doing? How many Russian territories wish to secede? ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/16 "2008-09-03T14:21:29Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > One of McCain’s chief strategists lobby firm had the Georgia contract. > > [Aide advises while Firm lobbies](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html) > > Yea - sure they did. Of course it was Wag The Dog. Does anyone seriously believe Georgia started a war with Russia off its own bat? Without a US nod and a wink? I agree that it is definitely a possibility, though I meant to address the media seemingly putting words in Putin’s mouth. A suspicion is hardly a strong accusation in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/17 "2008-09-03T15:51:39Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > :dubious: > > So, what’s the equivalent of the Racak massacre in South Ossetia (and no, ridiculous casualty reports in South Ossetia from Russian sources aren’t particularly convincing)? NATO didn’t just “bomb Serbia” on a whim—don’t be so facile. It seems like there’s a lot of equivocation between situations that bear only a small degree of similarity. NATO intervention in the Balkans—Europe’s tinderbox—to prevent atrocities, and drive out a megolomaniac, somehow justifies massive Russian intervention in a situation they themselves have been fomenting? Er no. > > As for “you can’t have it both ways”, well, isn’t this exactly what the Russians are themselves doing? How many Russian territories wish to secede? In the Racak massacre 40 or 50 were killed. It’s not very likely the attack by Georgia resulted in less deaths so I fail to see your point. Georgia started a war with Russia so as to violently assert control over people and territory they have never controlled. They lost. Tough shit. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-backs-independence-for-ossetia-and-abkhazia/461192/18 "2008-09-03T22:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not very likely the attack by Georgia resulted in less deaths so I fail to see your point. You cannot be serious. What is it with you and equating situations that bear no similarity to each other? - Racak was a single incident amongst many. That only 40 or 50 died in that _one_ instance is neither here nor there. - Racak was a massacre, whereas the Georgian offensive was in response to shelling and roadside bombing by South Ossetian partisans. The two simply aren’t comparable no matter how you try and paint it. - How many deaths actually resulted from _Georgia’s_ initial foray into the breakaway territories is up-in-the-air, as far as I can gather. Russia’s propaganda machine in the days immediately following the attacks was a wonder to behold. Hospitals in South Ossetia report only [44 deaths](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm) in their morgue (estimated to be the majority of those killed in the areas affected) due to the Georgian attacks. It’s unclear to me on what ground you claim that the initial attack produced significantly more deaths than Racak _alone_.