# Russia had evidence that Saddam planned terrorist attacks against U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054 "2004-06-18T15:58:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/61 "2004-06-19T07:31:25Z")
Speaking of wild hypotheticals… Let me get this straight - Bush cut a private deal with Putin to have Putin lie (in a very falsifiable way if his intelligence agency contradicts him or the official Bush supposedly thanked claims it never happened), to help Bush with his re-election, and in return Bush is going to pull strings after the election to award a lucrative contract of some sort to someone close to Putin, but whom we currently can’t identify? Do you have ANY evidence for this? Because I recently got chastised for merely speculating about the details of a public statement, and now you’re off on a wild conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/62 "2004-06-19T08:00:29Z")
**Sam** : > [@](#): > > - Speaking of wild hypotheticals… Let me get this straight - Bush cut a private deal with Putin to have Putin lie (in a very falsifiable way if his intelligence agency contradicts him or the official Bush supposedly thanked claims it never happened), to help Bush with his re-election, and in return Bush is going to pull strings after the election to award a lucrative contract of some sort to someone close to Putin, but whom we currently can’t identify?\* Can you explain to me why you would characterize this dark suspicion on my part as a “wild hypothetical?” It’s certainly less wild than the assertion that the Chinese had built underground bunkers for Saddam, and for this reason were against the US invasion, for example, which was put forward by a certain pro-war partisan on these boards not too long ago. _You_ fill this board with “wild hypotheticals” on a regular basis; but the minute an opponent even hints at a hypothetical possibility you jump down his throat. But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, no? > [@](#): > > - Do you have ANY evidence for this? Because I recently got chastised for merely speculating about the details of a public statement, and now you’re off on a wild conspiracy theory.\* No, I don’t have any evidence, nor did I claim to. But it is a sign of the depths to which my confidence in this administration has sunk that I would be willing to at least consider the accusation as possible. Were it to turn out to be true, I wouldn’t be surprised in the least. Never have I seen anything like the current situation in Washington. Given the litany of charges against the current regime, I find it unbelievable that people still support it. Torture, **Sam** , torture! Thousands of photos from Abu Ghraib! Video films from Guantanamo! Memos from the Justice Department discussing legal defenses for acts of torture! Outright lies slithering out of the White House regarding connections between al-Qaida and Hussein! The identities of CIA agents revealed for political gain! Unprecedented criticism from top-level diplomats, military analysts, and anti-terrorism experts! Aluminum tubes! Uranium from Niger! “WMDs”! Bush _is_ in a position to grant concession to Russia, and Putin, that Kerry probably cannot match. Is it really such a stretch to suspect that the lying sack of shit would grant such concessions for Putin’s support, if he could? Well, sorry, I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/63 "2004-06-19T08:06:59Z")
You’re certainly entitled to that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/64 "2004-06-19T08:14:06Z")
Re. Putin’s statement, it had a precursor, when Putin said recently that US Democrats have no “moral right” to criticize Bush for Iraq, because they done the same in Kosovo. I think it’s important to understand two things: 1. Clinton upset Russians real bad when he bombed Serbs. There was a complete reverse in Russian public polls from 70-30 favoring US before Kosovo to 30-70 after Kosovo; this will remain a basic fact of US-Russia relations for a very long time. 2. Most Russians don’t like Democracy and don’t understand US Democrats at all. Popular word for for a democrat in Russia is “_dermo-crat_” which means “_shito-crat_”. Most Russians will accept Bush, even in the role of adversary, but for any democrat they will have nothing but scorn. Therefore, don’t expect Russians to help Kerry in any way. I tend to agree with ‘Sevastopol’ in that any plans for Saddam teracts against US were probably on a level of strategic war games. Militaries of all countries play such games. I’m sure French have a top secret plan how to deal with next Normandy invasion, just in case. Concerning the allegation that Russians might be angling for a lucrative contract in Iraq, there is no ground for that, for the simple reason that they quite possibly already have the contract. Contrary to lefties delusions, Russians never left Iraq: they were there during Saddam, and they are there still, mostly working on - guess what? - power stations. It came to light just recently, when a bus full of Russians contructors was shot upon and two of them were killed, most likely by opposing business mafia group. There are between 200-300 Russian contructors working in Iraq. Who pays their salaries? ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/65 "2004-06-19T11:25:01Z")
Russia? Credible? Am I seeing these two words used in the same sentence here? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/66 "2004-06-19T11:55:24Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > Russia? Credible? Am I seeing these two words used in the same sentence here? > > :dubious: As much as I have a love/hate (maybe love/frustration is more accurate) relationship with Russia, this is a pretty wide generalization. Maybe on this issue, maybe not, but a wide generalization nonetheless. I don’t know whether the Russian government lies a whole ton more than many other governments do. They do, however, give far fewer public indications of giving a damn about what the rest of the world thinks than many Western countries do. (If you flame me, keep in mind that I’m leaving on a trip shhortly and will probably be offline for a few days.) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/67 "2004-06-19T12:32:37Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > As much as I have a love/hate (maybe love/frustration is more accurate) relationship with Russia, this is a pretty wide generalization. Maybe on this issue, maybe not, but a wide generalization nonetheless. I don’t know whether the Russian government lies a whole ton more than many other governments do. They do, however, give far fewer public indications of giving a damn about what the rest of the world thinks than many Western countries do. > > (If you flame me, keep in mind that I’m leaving on a trip shhortly and will probably be offline for a few days.) Without getting into the everlasting discussion on how Russia is different from the West, I have to support **Eva** ’s statements here. As I said in a post early on in this thread, Russians play hardball, and the people know it. They aren’t cowering under the threat of a media conspiracy; they live with the reality of one that would make Americans piss themselves several times over. Taking news like this with a bucket full of salt is probably a good idea, but not because it isn’t credible - it is because it has more strings attatched than anything Americans have seen for a long while. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/68 "2004-06-19T13:35:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > ??? > > Putin said that the Russian agencies shared information with the U.S. agencies (with neither Putin nor Bush involved–and certainly without Putin being the bearer of the information). Following which, Putin claims that Bush (presumably informed of this information sharing) thanked one of the Russian executives for the information. > Had Putin supplied the information to Bush, then it would have made more sense for Bush to thank Putin, directly. Nothing in Putin’s comments provides a basis for assuming that Bush was involved in the exchange, other than to acknowledge it after the fact. Well ah – OK. But the original statement from **Sam Stone** was that Bush knew about this before the war. I didn’t read **Sam’s** statement as being about who specifically passed the information to whom – . From what I see that’s the intent of his statement. That Bush knew. Now - your response to that was _“Bush is not part of the equation”_ — which is a pretty incredible statement as I see this. How do you conclude this? Putin has stated that Bush had this information. According to Putin Bush knew - and that knowledge certainly made him ‘part of the equation’ - considering his position. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/69 "2004-06-19T15:18:21Z")
**Sam** said that Putin gave the information to Bush. According to Putin’s comments, _neither_ executive was involved in the transfer of information, so the notion that “Bush could not release the information” is not part of the equation. The information (if any) was passed at lower levels. I’d have probably been more clear had I said “Putin and Bush are not part of the equation.” We have a single, unsupported comment that some information was passed between intelligence communities in which the author of that claim makes no reference to the executives exchanging the information, so escalating that exchange to the level of secret deals between the executives is outside the equation. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/70 "2004-06-19T17:30:20Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > They do, however, give far fewer public indications of giving a damn about what the rest of the world thinks than many Western countries do. I agree 100%. Remember Chernobyl? The Fins asked Russia if there was some kind of problem, the Fins were detecting an excessive amount of radiation in the atmosphere. Russia’s reply? No, you are mistaken, there is no problem. Russia couldn’t care less about what the rest of the world thinks. Talk about irresponsible world citizens, they are the poster child for that organization. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/71 "2004-06-19T17:55:58Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > I agree 100%. Remember Chernobyl? The Fins asked Russia if there was some kind of problem, the Fins were detecting an excessive amount of radiation in the atmosphere. Russia’s reply? No, you are mistaken, there is no problem. Russia couldn’t care less about what the rest of the world thinks. Talk about irresponsible world citizens, they are the poster child for that organization. You have to understand Russia’s simultaneous disdain for and burning desire to be accepted by the West… and their continued failed attempts at being peers. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/72 "2004-06-19T21:11:11Z")
The State Department says no reports of Saddam inspired terrorist plotting was passed to them by the Russians. The White House, however, refuses to confirm or deny that this information was sent. And the plot thickens - > [@](#): > > … The State Department said no such reports had passed through its offices while the White House refused to either confirm or deny Mr Putin’s claim. > > “As you know, we have ongoing co-operation with the Russian Government, including in matters of intelligence. And we don’t discuss specific intelligence matters,” White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said. > > “We’ve declassified as much information as we can to talk about the threat that Saddam Hussein posed. And clearly, he was a threat to America, to the world,” she said. [http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/19/1087595787570.html](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/19/1087595787570.html) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/73 "2004-06-19T21:20:22Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > The State Department says no reports of Saddam inspired terrorist plotting was passed to them by the Russians. The White House, however, refuses to confirm or deny that this information was sent. And the plot thickens You can’t measure how unsurprised I am. The Bush Admin can hardly be said to be cooperative with State. Still wonder what they mean by “clear evidence” though :-p ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/74 "2004-06-19T22:07:11Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Still wonder what they mean by “clear evidence” though :-p Transparent. Easy to see through. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/75 "2004-06-19T23:13:56Z")
Ms. Buchan: > [@](#): > > “We’ve declassified as much information as we can to talk about the threat that Saddam Hussein posed. And clearly, he was a threat to America, to the world,” she said. Balderdash! If there were “secrecy” agreements with Putin, then he has already given a tacit OK to release the information by mentioning them, himself. At the least, this information could have been shared with Chirac or Schroeder–or, perhaps, Powell-- if it actually existed. Once the _event_ noted in the information was identified, we could have used separate sources to dig up the same information after May of last year, simply to “justify” our invasion. Somehow, relying on “unconfirmed” (actually, unspecified) rumors emanating from a man who has already displayed a partisan interest in U.S. politics (and who has used trumped up charges to eliminate his own opponents in his own country) does not stirke me as a good way to ascertain the truth. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/76 "2004-06-20T00:47:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Somehow, relying on “unconfirmed” (actually, unspecified) rumors emanating from a man who has already displayed a partisan interest in U.S. politics (and who has used trumped up charges to eliminate his own opponents in his own country) does not stirke me as a good way to ascertain the truth. I wonder whether the sources used for this are some of the authentic and reliable sources or are they the kind of source that gives intelligence which is always tentative? As far as I am concerned the GW gang’s credibility is so shot that I would want confirmation if they said the sun would come up tomorrow. We have been told that they had absolutely firm evidence of chemical and biological weapons ready to go, evidenced by “chemical labs” in trailers. That there was an ongoing nuclear program, evidenced by attempts to by uranimum in Africa and by aluminum tubing and centrifuge parts. And then when that all blew up the absolutely firm evidence was dismissed with a wave of the hand and the platitude that “intelligence is always iffy.” And now we get authoritative word from a KGB agent, of all people. How much does it take for some people to realise that the GW gang takes its cues from the leader who is a con man all the way? Phoney as a $3 bill. We just have to put up with it until at least next January and maybe beyond. I just hope our national resources and financial credit will hold out that long. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/77 "2004-06-20T04:54:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You can tell us, **Sam**. We’re all friends here. Did you ever, _ever_, in your wildest dreams, imagine you would be defending the trustworthiness and candor of _Vladimir Putin_! KGB operative and vampire bat, Vladimir Putin. > > Good heavens, **Sam** , behold the state to which you are fallen! If you persist in defending these people, this is not the last humiliation you will bear, nor the least. Repent! while there is still time! This is just too funny, coming from the same people who spent a whole year after Iraq invasion, bemoaning how Bush “failed” to forge a “truly” multilateral coalition with Russia, China & France, all the while extolling those three as paragons of international ethics. When you praised Putin for not joining with Bush, you forgot all about his KGB past. Now you suddenly remember. Now it is suddenly **Sam** who is complicit in dealing with KGB. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/78 "2004-06-20T05:27:18Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > This is just too funny, coming from the same people… Actually, I’m only one person _(no, you’re not! what about me! Shut up! Its my turn to be the personality! OK, you little bitch, but I’ll get you later…)_ > [@](#): > > … who spent a whole year after Iraq invasion, bemoaning how Bush “failed” to forge a “truly” multilateral coalition with Russia, China & France, all the while extolling those three as paragons of international ethics. When you praised Putin for not joining with Bush, you forgot all about his KGB past. Now you suddenly remember. Now it is suddenly **Sam** who is complicit in dealing with KGB. You dont seem to quite get it. When you use the “quote marks” when addressing a respondent, you as much as state that you are _directly_ quoting, something that is “on the record”. That you can cite. Since you are pulling this out of your Nixon, you cannot support such a claim. To save your life, you could not come up with a cite of me praising Russia, China, and/or France as “paragons of international ethics”. Nor could you, for a million bucks and an opportunity to perform unnatural acts with my chihuahua, find any instance of me praising Mr. Putin. Lastly, I suggest a course of humor enhancing steroids, should such be available. I was (rather mildly) tweaking **Sam, the Canadian Eagle** for a presumed reliance upon the trustworthiness of Mr. Putin. It was a put-on, a jape, a jocularity…in your case, a “whoosh”. Have you considered taking a course in Post-Modernist Irony? 'Cause those of us with a sense of humor are having a much better time than you are. Trust me on this. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/79 "2004-06-20T15:20:41Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > This is just too funny, coming from the same people who spent a whole year after Iraq invasion, bemoaning how Bush “failed” to forge a “truly” multilateral coalition with Russia, China & France, all the while extolling those three as paragons of international ethics. When you praised Putin for not joining with Bush, you forgot all about his KGB past. Now you suddenly remember. Now it is suddenly **Sam** who is complicit in dealing with KGB. Why would people want to have a more multilateral coalition? How would it help the US? What’s your impression on this one? Do you really think it is because people think that Russia, China, France et al are exemplars of virtue? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054/80 "2004-06-20T16:05:04Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > This is just too funny, coming from the same people who spent a whole year after Iraq invasion, bemoaning how Bush “failed” to forge a “truly” multilateral coalition with Russia, China & France, all the while extolling those three as paragons of international ethics. When you praised Putin for not joining with Bush, you forgot all about his KGB past. Now you suddenly remember. Now it is suddenly **Sam** who is complicit in dealing with KGB. So… you’re admitted that **Sam** is wrong again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-had-evidence-that-saddam-planned-terrorist-attacks-against-u-s/251054.md?page=5)