# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 103
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2041 "2014-03-29T14:28:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Not that it really matters, but as far as I can tell from [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War) wiki cite it was 54 nations that officially condemned the war. My WAG is that a lot of nations would have abstained, but that the US would have still been able to cobble together more than 11 regardless. > > And, just to be clear, I agree that the US should have come under protest for it’s actions against Iraq…in fact, I think more nations would have been justified in doing so than represented here in this list. I’m still unclear as to why if the US does something wrong that means Russia is in the right for doing what they are doing…or really, what past US transgressions have to do with this situation where the US is only peripherally involved have to do with the right or wrong of what Russia is doing in this particular situation. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, like I said, I’m not sure that most were against it. Not something there ever was a vote on, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some countries opposed would prefer not to do so publicly and offend the US. So how do we know? > > And in the context (hah!) of this discussion it’s not very informative to say that most countries oppose Russia’s action in Crimea in a similar way that most countries opposed the US action in Iraq. Different levels of “most”, if that’s even the correct word for the latter case. [The Coalition of the Willing](http://www.clinecenter.illinois.edu/research/airbrushing_history/) consisted of 46 countries, so with 54 opposed, it is true that most countries that expressed an official stance were opposed. ‘Different levels of “most”’ is spot-on, 54-46 is obviously lot closer than 100-11. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2042 "2014-03-29T14:51:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The group in question is the group of 11 nations that voted against the resolution condemning the Crimean referendum as invalid. . I understand that you are saying that this _group of **nations /sovereign states** [/U_]are 11 specific states that voted against something that fine and upstanding states and nations voted for. And for that they considered to be states full of “a coterie of undesirable people” and are kept upon some kind of list. Another word for “a coterie of undesirable people” in my mind is the word rogue. And side everybody is talking about states I certainly see no fault with referring to XT personal slur against me as saying I am associated in some with rogue states that voted against. Being a part of a do-gooder and never-does-wrong nation I could easily vote yes for a meaningless non-action pile of words at the UN in order to serve some political or economic self-interest because the vote does not lead to war or any real punishment of Russia. There is de facto acceptance in the air that Crimea is a fait accompli and there is nothing going to be done with it. So once again XT Mace Human Action have chosen to slur me personally with this bogus Rogues’s Gallery attack because they apparently aren’t feeling well about their meaningless and falseified high moral authoritative point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Falesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Falesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falesh)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2043 "2014-03-29T14:59:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Was there a trigger to the chain of events that led to the done deal that is Crimea becoming part of the Russian Federation? Or was it that Putin simply ‘decided’ to jaywalk-invade Crimea with absolutely no provocation of any sort from Ukraine and the events in Kiev? What is your opinion about this question? Do you think there was a trigger and do you think Russia acted correctly or not? (I posted my opinion about this above) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2044 "2014-03-29T15:07:55Z")
[QUOTE=Human Action;17239660. ‘Different levels of “most”’ is spot-on, 54-46 is obviously lot closer than 100-11.[/QUOTE] No UN vote to condemn the Iraq invasion atrocity. Just these countries condemning it on their own. No punishment for the perps who are responsible for deaths of 200,000 human being and trillions of dollars of resources going to the waste that is war… How many died for Russia’s decision to back a local uprising of declaration of independence. (1) and we have to have a vote. This is the list of non-rogue states who voiced in opposition to what the rogue states biolently did to Iraq. Ukraine is not on this list. Why are they bitching now? Russia was on this list. Good for them. The 54 following countries have protested formally and officially the prosecution of this war. They oppose the Iraq War in principle, citing in some cases that they believe it is illegal, and in others that it required a United Nations mandate. African Union[90] Arab League (except Kuwait)[91] Algeria Bahrain Comoros Djibouti Egypt Iraq Iraq Jordan Lebanon Mauritania Morocco Oman Palestine Qatar Saudi Arabia Somalia Sudan Syria Tunisia United Arab Emirates Yemen European Union Austria[92][citation needed] Belgium[93] France[94] Germany[94] Greece[95] Slovenia Sweden Argentina[96] Bangladesh Belarus[97] Brazil[98] Canada[99] Chile[100] China[101] Croatia Cuba[102] Dominica Ecuador India[103] Iran[104] Indonesia[105] Liechtenstein Malaysia[106] Mexico[100] New Zealand[107] North Korea Pakistan[108] Russia[94] Switzerland Turkey Vatican City[109] Venezuela[110] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2045 "2014-03-29T15:11:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [The Coalition of the Willing](http://www.clinecenter.illinois.edu/research/airbrushing_history/) consisted of 46 countries, so with 54 opposed, it is true that most countries that expressed an official stance were opposed. No, because the Coalition of the Willing were the ones who participated in some way or another. One needn’t participate to approve (or not disapprove). There are 193 Nations in the UN General Assembly. The CotW + Opposed = 100, leaving 93 unaccounted for. Saying that most countries were opposed to the Iraq war _could_ be true, but I don’t think we have any way of actually knowing. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2046 "2014-03-29T15:34:09Z")
> [@Falesh](#): > > What is your opinion about this question? Do you think there was a trigger and do you think Russia acted correctly or not? (I posted my opinion about this above) The trigger is the participation by some right wing nationalists in the violent overthrow and illegal removal of an elected president in the latter days of February that triggered a chain of events. The threat to the President’s life and subsequent removal from office without any constitutional means led to a 'breakaway spontaneous and popular uprising; by the legislators in Crimea that was backed by pro-separatists militia that was home grown and with ranks being filled with Ukrainian military and police defectors at a rapid pace. The Crimean separatists movement signaled they had taken much of the control of Crimea outside of the bases where Russian troops were legally stationed. They feared the Ukrainian government was being absorbed by anti-Russian nationalists and could gain control of the army and police in Crimea and do harm. So they requested protection by Russian Forces already in Crimea and that could be brought into Crimea if possible. Crimea was not a part of Ukraine in revolutionary sense after the declaration to separate was announced and Ukraine security forces could no longer over power and arrest them. They formed a new government spontaneously and because of the trigger that was pulled in Ukraine, buy Ukrainians. Any Russian troops that left the bases where they were legally stations should not be considered ‘invaders’ since they were responding to calls for assistance by the new formed ‘rebel’ government of Crimea. Forming a ‘rebel’ government is a violation of Ukraine’s constitutions however the major violation of Ukraine’s constitution had already been presented. Because it was violence in Kiev that pulled the trigger I can accept that the Crimean’s reaction was wrong in a strict legal international sense with respect to respect for territorial integrity of nations, however I must have much less sympathy for Ukraine’s territorial integrity in light of the fact of the violence and chaos and illegal government in Kiev that is only now cracking down on the right wing extremists that were free to roam the streets the past few months to stir up violence and bloodshed to push their agenda through the threat of violence and protest against a government. I tend to side with the rebels in Crimea more than the rebels in Kiev. And the western media is not reporting this story in any objective sense to tell both sides. That is the most dangerous element of all as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2047 "2014-03-29T15:49:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I understand that you are saying that this _group of **nations /sovereign states** [/U_]are 11 specific states that voted against something that fine and upstanding states and nations voted for. And for that they considered to be states full of “a coterie of undesirable people” and are kept upon some kind of list. You cannot be serious. North Korea, Syria, Sudan, Zimbabwe, et al…these nations aren’t considered to be less than stellar examples of nation-states because they voted “no” on this resolution. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Another word for “a coterie of undesirable people” in my mind is the word rogue. And side everybody is talking about states I certainly see no fault with referring to XT personal slur against me as saying I am associated in some with rogue states that voted against. Even though “rogue state” is a different term with a different meaning? What a fun game! _Another word for “government by the people” is “democracy”. And since everybody is talking about governments I see no fault with referring to saying I approve of “government by the people” as saying I approve of the German Democratic Republic. You have slandered me as an apologist for Soviet-backed tyranny!_ > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Being a part of a do-gooder and never-does-wrong nation… There’s no such thing. > [@NotfooldedbyW](#): > > …I could easily vote yes for a meaningless non-action pile of words at the UN in order to serve some political or economic self-interest because the vote does not lead to war or any real punishment of Russia. There is de facto acceptance in the air that Crimea is a fait accompli and there is nothing going to be done with it. What a bizarre stance. Only nations that are willing to go to war over an issue are able to take a meaningful position on it? If, say, Canada isn’t going to launch missiles at Russia over this, then their condemnation means nothing? You’re like an onion, every new layer reveals a new, ever-shifting, incredibly strange worldview. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So once again XT Mace Human Action have chosen to slur me personally with this bogus Rogues’s Gallery attack because they apparently aren’t feeling well about their meaningless and falseified high moral authoritative point of view. Please quote where I’ve slurred you. I pointed out your mistake; foolishly, I even gave you the benefit of the doubt as to your motives. I really should know better by now. And when you’re reduced to using “moral point of view” as a slander, it’s indicative of the moral bankruptcy of your own view. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No UN vote to condemn the Iraq invasion atrocity. > > Just these countries condemning it on their own. > > No punishment for the perps who are responsible for deaths of 200,000 human being and trillions of dollars of resources going to the waste that is war… > How many died for Russia’s decision to back a local uprising of declaration of independence. (1) and we have to have a vote. > This is the list of non-rogue states who voiced in opposition to what the rogue states biolently did to Iraq. > Ukraine is not on this list. Why are they bitching now? Russia was on this list. Good for them. Good for them? You must be blinded by your America-phobic ideology. Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979. Their condemnation of an American invasion is rank hypocrisy of the worst kind! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2048 "2014-03-29T15:53:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, because the Coalition of the Willing were the ones who participated in some way or another. One needn’t participate to approve (or not disapprove). Given how symbolic a lot of the participation was, were there any nations that officially approved, but didn’t participate in any way? > [@John Mace](#): > > There are 193 Nations in the UN General Assembly. The CotW + Opposed = 100, leaving 93 unaccounted for. Saying that most countries were opposed to the Iraq war _could_ be true, but I don’t think we have any way of actually knowing. Not for all 193, no, just the ones who expressed an official stance. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2049 "2014-03-29T15:54:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, because the Coalition of the Willing were the ones who participated in some way or another. One needn’t participate to approve (or not disapprove). > > There are 193 Nations in the UN General Assembly. The CotW + Opposed = 100, leaving 93 unaccounted for. Saying that most countries were opposed to the Iraq war _could_ be true, but I don’t think we have any way of actually knowing. I’ll take one of these for every one hundred nations with special interests taking a position: These are views based upon morality and they hold more weight than the views of the war-mongering minions who agreed at the time that Bush was justified to remove Saddam Hussein from power because Saddam was evil and had acted defiant in the past. > [@](#): > > The Vatican also spoke out against war in Iraq. Archbishop Renato Raffaele Martino, a former U.N. envoy and current prefect of the Council for Justice and Peace, told reporters that war against Iraq was a preventive war and constituted a “war of aggression”, and thus did not constitute a just war. > > The foreign minister, Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, expressed concerns that a war in Iraq would inflame anti-Christian feelings in the Islamic world. > > \*\*\*On February 8, 2003, Pope John Paul II said \*\*\*“we should never resign ourselves, almost as if war is inevitable.”[76] He spoke out again on March 22, 2003, shortly after the invasion began, saying that violence and arms “can never resolve the problems of man.”[77][78][79] ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2050 "2014-03-29T16:01:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’ll take one of these for every one hundred nations with special interests taking a position: > > These are views based upon morality and they hold more weight than the views of the war-mongering minions who agreed at the time that Bush was justified to remove Saddam Hussein from power because Saddam was evil and had acted defiant in the past. In that case, [this should settle the matter for you:](http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1400877.htm) > [@](#): > > After Russian troops entered Crimea, Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of Kiev-Halych, head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, issued a statement March 1 saying, “Ukraine, unfortunately, has been pulled into a military conflict. So far no one is shooting, so far people are not dying, but it is obvious that military intervention has already begun.” > > “Our people and our country are currently in danger,” the archbishop said. “We must stand up for our country, to be ready – if necessary – to sacrifice our lives **in order to protect the sovereign, free, independent, and unified state** ,” he said in the statement distributed by the Catholic magazine Credo. Bolding mine. I look forward to your next post, which will surely switch your moral backing from Crimean separatists to supporters of a unified Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2051 "2014-03-29T16:06:24Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Given how symbolic a lot of the participation was, were there any nations that officially approved, but didn’t participate in any way? > > Not for all 193, no, just the ones who expressed an official stance. Which is why we have to stick with “we don’t know”. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2052 "2014-03-29T16:10:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW I understand that you are saying that this group of nations /sovereign statesare 11 specific states that voted against something that fine and upstanding states and nations voted for. And for that they considered to be states full of “a coterie of undesirable people” and are kept upon some kind of list. > > > [@](#): > > > > You cannot be serious. North Korea, Syria, Sudan, Zimbabwe, et al…these nations aren’t considered to be less than stellar examples of nation-states because they voted “no” on this resolution. > [@](#): > > Quote:Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW Another word for “a coterie of undesirable people” in my mind is the word rogue. And side everybody is talking about states I certainly see no fault with referring to XT personal slur against me as saying I am associated in some with rogue states that voted against. > > > [@](#): > > > > Even though “rogue state” is a different term with a different meaning? What a fun game! because you must snip complete paragraphs into pieces and cannot respond in whole thoughts it will take longer to respond. But I will respond to this petty distraction of pickiness and false assumptons and misreading as time permits. There are far more interesting sub-plot to the story than the quibbling arena right now where you want to spend your time. ---
**Author:** ![Falesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Falesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falesh)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2053 "2014-03-29T16:14:11Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > They feared the Ukrainian government was being absorbed by anti-Russian nationalists and could gain control of the army and police in Crimea and do harm. So they requested protection by Russian Forces already in Crimea and that could be brought into Crimea if possible. So ultimately you think that the Russian intervention was justified in order to protect Russian nationals? I could see that if all Russia did was to provide security but the annexation or Crimea actually goes against the goal of providing security. If the Russian nationals throughout Ukraine were in danger from anti-Russian people then logically the last thing Russia should do is to inflame the passions of those anti-Russian people. The annexation of Crimea does the exact opposite, it not only inflames any already present anti-Russian feelings but also creates new feelings of hostility as now Ukrainians have just witnessed Russia cut out part of their country. Also do you not think that it is somewhat extreme to annex part of a sovereign state in order to avoid a temporary security issue, which was not currently a problem as Russian troops had flooded Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2054 "2014-03-29T16:19:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I look forward to your next post, which will surely switch your moral backing from Crimean separatists to supporters of a unified Ukraine. With respect “supporters of a unified Ukraine” sounds a lot like “supporters of the Holy Roman Empire” or “supporters of Großdeutschland”. Russian Crimea is a done deal and the whole concept of a “unified Ukraine” can be kicked over to St Jude. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2055 "2014-03-29T16:20:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which is why we have to stick with “we don’t know”. Fair enough, but if you want to go that route, we can’t assume that the 100-11 vote was that substantial, because of the 58 abstentions. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > because you must snip complete paragraphs into pieces and cannot respond in whole thoughts it will take longer to respond. But I will respond to this petty distraction of pickiness and false assumptons and misreading as time permits. > There are far more interesting sub-plot to the story than the quibbling arena right now where you want to spend your time. When each paragraph consists of multiple absurd positions (I mean, come on …North freakin’ Korea is a disreputable state _because they voted no on this resolution?_ I dare you to make less sense!), what am I to do but address them all? Frankly, I don’t know what you expect. When I advance substantial arguments for my positions, you either write variations on the idea that I have no right to tell the people involved (Egyptians, Crimeans, Russians, Putin himself) what to do (a restriction that, oddly, you don’t apply to yourself), or just ignore my points altogether. When I address factual inaccuracies and fabrications in _your_ arguments, you dismiss them as nitpicks. As a result, it doesn’t appear to be possible to debate in any form with you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2056 "2014-03-29T16:51:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Fair enough, but if you want to go that route, we can’t assume that the 100-11 vote was that substantial, because of the 58 abstentions. Why? We know how each nation voted, or not. We know that _most_ voted in favor. Even if the 58 abstentions were really “against”, it’s still a significant majority voting in favor. And I’m not so concerned about whether it is “substantial” or not, as that is a subjective term. We never had that for Iraq. We just don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2057 "2014-03-29T17:01:42Z")
> [@Falesh](#): > > So ultimately you think that the Russian intervention was justified in order to protect Russian nationals? I could see that if all Russia did was to provide security but the annexation or Crimea actually goes against the goal of providing security. If the Russian nationals throughout Ukraine were in danger from anti-Russian people then logically the last thing Russia should do is to inflame the passions of those anti-Russian people. The annexation of Crimea does the exact opposite, it not only inflames any already present anti-Russian feelings but also creates new feelings of hostility as now Ukrainians have just witnessed Russia cut out part of their country. > > Also do you not think that it is somewhat extreme to annex part of a sovereign state in order to avoid a temporary security issue, which was not currently a problem as Russian troops had flooded Crimea? My point is that on around February 28 the Ukraine, due to the vacuum created in Kiev this was this chain of events that rapidly occurred to fill it: [ul]The Central government of Ukraine lost Constitutional, security and military control of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. [/ul] [ul] [li]The Crimea leaders and vast majority of legislators declared notice that it was the intent of Crimea to separate from Ukraine[/li][/ul] [ul] [li]Once that rebellious anit Ukraine act was committed there was no turning back. The only way to implement independence at that time was to seek military backing from Russia.[/li][/ul] And they got it. And Crimea has joined the Russian Federation and the world will learn how to deal with it. Meanwhile Ukraine has so many internal problems that they best get down to business with cleaning up their own act. And don’t blow up the pipelines. Nobody in the world wants that. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2058 "2014-03-29T17:14:51Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > With respect “supporters of a unified Ukraine” sounds a lot like “supporters of the Holy Roman Empire” or “supporters of Großdeutschland”. Russian Crimea is a done deal and the whole concept of a “unified Ukraine” can be kicked over to St Jude. And Obama indicated weeks ago that Crimea was going to Russia and yesterday has confirmed that diplomatic negotiations are underway in direct talks between the US and Russia and coercing Russia to give up Crimea now is not part of the talks. They had their vote in the UN and now ‘life goes on’… Crimea, Russia is going on the maps and it is ‘defacto recognized’ as part of Russia. Once WWIV (Russia Georgia Olympic War of 2008 was WWIII potential) gets ratcheted down. life goes on. Republican vote again to repeal ObamaCare and complaining how the Press doesn’t investigate Benghazi… No news here… the quibbling has already begun by a few. ---
**Author:** ![Falesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Falesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falesh)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2059 "2014-03-29T17:38:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > My point is that on around February 28 the Ukraine, due to the vacuum created in Kiev this was this chain of events that rapidly occurred to fill it: > > [ul]The Central government of Ukraine lost Constitutional, security and military control of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. [/ul] > [ul] > [li]The Crimea leaders and vast majority of legislators declared notice that it was the intent of Crimea to separate from Ukraine[/li][/ul] > [ul] > [li]Once that rebellious anit Ukraine act was committed there was no turning back. The only way to implement independence at that time was to seek military backing from Russia.[/li][/ul] > And they got it. And Crimea has joined the Russian Federation and the world will learn how to deal with it. > > Meanwhile Ukraine has so many internal problems that they best get down to business with cleaning up their own act. And don’t blow up the pipelines. Nobody in the world wants that. But there wasn’t much of a vacuum in Kiev. After the old government fell an interim one sprang up with a promise of elections in May. At the end of this process Ukraine would have a government elected by it’s people again. Besides, Crimea would still be fine even if there was a temporary vacuum in Kiev due to the overwhelming presence of Russian troops throughout Crimea. What you seem to be suggesting is that certain people in Crimea saw this as an excuse to join Russia. If this is the case then they are completely in the wrong because they didn’t give the Crimean people a fair say about their future as the questions on the referendum did not include staying with Ukraine, it was set up and conducted in too short a time for a proper debate to be had, it was conducted while the country was occupied by Russian troops and there was a massive one sided [propaganda war](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10695038/Russian-TV-swamps-airwaves-in-Crimea-propaganda-war.html) taking place. Finally polls prior to this showed that the Crimean people did not want to join Russia. If security wasn’t an issue and the annexation did not give the Crimean people a free and fair say on their future, and by recent previous polls actually went against what the people wished, why do you think it was an acceptable thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2060 "2014-03-29T17:43:51Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > [ul]The Central government of Ukraine lost Constitutional, security and military control of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. [/ul] They didn’t lose control. The leadership changed. > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]The Crimea leaders and vast majority of legislators declared notice that it was the intent of Crimea to separate from Ukraine[/li][/ul] Under Russian occupation of the government buildings. > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]Once that rebellious anit Ukraine act was committed there was no turning back. The only way to implement independence at that time was to seek military backing from Russia.[/li][/ul] > And they got it. And Crimea has joined the Russian Federation and the world will learn how to deal with it. So they implemented independence by joining the Russian federation. Does that make sense even to you? > [@](#): > > Meanwhile Ukraine has so many internal problems that they best get down to business with cleaning up their own act. And don’t blow up the pipelines. Nobody in the world wants that. I think some Ukrainian nationalists might want that. I bet they do it if Russia threatens more Ukraine territory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=102) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=104)