# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 105
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2081 "2014-03-30T00:51:49Z")
I wasn’t talking to you. What is so complicated? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2082 "2014-03-30T01:05:50Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The question now is can the rest of the Ukraine be saved? The Russians have troops massed all along the border. They could take the whole country in a few days. > > Something is developing. Sure hope this isn’t a waste of time. > [Ukraine crisis: Kerry and Lavrov in push for solution - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26803688) Of course it is not a waste of time. It is an off ramp for the west and Ukraine as well: From your link: > [@](#): > > The US proposal, described as a “diplomatic off-ramp”, has been developed in consultation with Ukraine and several EU countries, > > Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov: “We have absolutely no intention of, or interest in, crossing Ukraine’s borders” > > It is thought to involve halting the military build-up near Ukraine’s border, the deployment of international monitors in eastern Ukraine to protect the rights of Russian speakers, and the return of Russian troops in Crimea to their bases there. Only (c) appears to be one that deserves some clarification since all of Crimea is part of the Russian Federation now. (a) halting the military build-up near Ukraine’s border (b) deployment of international monitors in eastern Ukraine to protect the rights of Russian speakers, (c) the return of Russian troops in Crimea to their bases there. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2083 "2014-03-30T01:17:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I wasn’t talking to you. What is so complicated? I was informing you of your error. And now you are doubling down on it. When you posted this today at 01:43 PM in direct response to my (Post 17239907) … > [@](#): > > So they implemented independence by joining the Russian federation. Does that make sense even to you? … am I supposed to know somehow that when you ask me a question it means that you are not TALKING TO ME? It was Post #2057 where you cited my post and asked me the question: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17240004&postcount=2057](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17240004&postcount=2057) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2084 "2014-03-30T04:05:35Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I was informing you of your error. And now you are doubling down on it. > > When you posted this today at 01:43 PM in direct response to my (Post 17239907) … … am I supposed to know somehow that when you ask me a question it means that you are not TALKING TO ME? > > It was Post #2057 where you cited my post and asked me the question: > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17240004&postcount=2057](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17240004&postcount=2057) But you specifically left out that question when you first replied to that post. Why am I supposed to know that your later response that quotes a comment I directed towards someone else was related to something that I said to you earlier in a different context? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2085 "2014-03-30T06:07:37Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW;17239695. . . I certainly see no fault with referring to XT personal slur against me . . . . . . So once again XT Mace Human Action have chosen to slur me personally . . .[/QUOTE] If you wish to feel insulted, go ahead and feel that way. If you wish to respond in (what you believe to be) kind, open a thread in The BBQ Pit. You have not been insulted in the manner that is a violation of the rules in this forum and if you continue to harp on this false accusation, you will be Warned for hijacking or threadshitting, depending on how you choose to do it. Stick to the actual discussion and quit making up claims that “slurs” have been cast against you. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2086 "2014-03-30T07:24:42Z")
In other news: The USA is sole nay vote on UN resolution passed yesterday regarding something or other to do with the Palestinians. Who really gives a shit about these UN things? The USA certainly doesn’t. And this is one of the reasons why it is not in the best interest of the USA to alienate Russia: [S-400 missile system to China](http://vz.ru/news/2014/3/28/679374.html). Next up will be the otherwise scrapped sale of the S-300 to Iran. If you actively work on sanctioning Russia what leverage do you have to prevent it? And IMF just pressed Ukraine to shock raise the price of gas by 50% at the consumers, starting from next month in return for loans to pay off debt repayment on other loans. Ukrainians are going to feel like they’re the ones being sanctioned. All part of the West’s Hearts and Minds strategy I’m sure. If the EU had been serious in its commitments to Ukraine it would have provided that money as an aid donation. It’s a minor percentage of what is wasted annually on farm subsidies. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2087 "2014-03-30T09:31:49Z")
On 03-27-2014 at 02:21 PM XT wrote: > [@](#): > > The rest of them are certainly a rogues gallery of stellar countries that I’m sure NFBW, Red and the gang can really feel comfortable about having in their corner and on their side, though. 😛 I am not comfortable about having anything about my good name and my argument being associated with the word ‘rogue’ in my corner and on my side. My arguments are based upon my independent research on the issues of the day. If you can find any matter of rogue in my corner please feel free to prove it. As for the vote at the UN If I were given the authority to vote I would have abstained or not voted at all. The thing was purely ceremonial. So I have no association with any nation that voted ‘no’. On 03-28-2014 at 02:20 PM John Mace wrote: > [@](#): > > If one wakes up surrounded by pigs, one might question where one chose to bed down last night. If John Mace is aware that I have woken up surrounded by pigs that is odd because I have never woken up surrounded by any farm ammonals… I do have a dog but she sleeps in another room. Since this is a debate forum I would like to know how an accusation suggesting I bed down with pigs has anything to do with the arguments that have been presented here. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2088 "2014-03-30T09:43:12Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > In other news: The USA is sole nay vote on UN resolution passed yesterday regarding something or other to do with the Palestinians. Who really gives a shit about these UN things? The USA certainly doesn’t. > > And this is one of the reasons why it is not in the best interest of the USA to alienate Russia: [S-400 missile system to China](http://vz.ru/news/2014/3/28/679374.html). Next up will be the otherwise scrapped sale of the S-300 to Iran. If you actively work on sanctioning Russia what leverage do you have to prevent it? > > And IMF just pressed Ukraine to shock raise the price of gas by 50% at the consumers, starting from next month in return for loans to pay off debt repayment on other loans. Ukrainians are going to feel like they’re the ones being sanctioned. All part of the West’s Hearts and Minds strategy I’m sure. If the EU had been serious in its commitments to Ukraine it would have provided that money as an aid donation. It’s a minor percentage of what is wasted annually on farm subsidies. We need more reporting on the negotiations that took place between the EU and Yanukovich on the size of the amount of financial aid and loans that Ukraine was to get for pulling away from Russia. I read that Yanukovich was led down the primrose path by the EU with all kinds of economic sweeteners but when the it came time to sign the deal the wording and the fine print was literally a financial screwing of Ukraine that Ukrainians would be unable to bear. It didn’t help that Yanukovich was most likely himself a thief… but the EU bankers and lawyers setting up the deal to lure Ukraine away from Russia is not much different than thieving too. It certainly is a mess and how convenient that all the thieves involved have Putin to kick around as the big mastermind villain. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2089 "2014-03-30T09:58:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But you specifically left out that question when you first replied to that post. Why am I supposed to know that your later response that quotes a comment I directed towards someone else was related to something that I said to you earlier in a different context? It does not matter because I did not say you addressed your answer to me. On 03-29-2014 at 05:01 PM I posted this: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by CarnalK (Post 17240233) You guess so, huh? Awesome. > > You asked today at 01:43 PM: Quote: “Cite” So they implemented independence by joining the Russian federation. Does that make sense even to you? > You were responding to what I wrote at 01:01 PM today which was this: > > > [@](#): > > > > Once that rebellious anti-Ukraine act (the declaration of separation from Ukraine) was committed there was no turning back. The only way to implement independence at that time was to seek military backing from Russia. > > > > And they got it. And Crimea has joined the Russian Federation and the world will learn how to deal with it. > > The precise answer to your question is not a guess. It makes all the sense in the world to me. The people in Crimea have “implemented independence” from Ukraine by joining the Russian Federation. Do you doubt that this transfer has taken place? And the orderly way the change is being conducted it is quite safe to say that it makes sense that a majority of the people in Crimea accept if not welcome the change. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2090 "2014-03-30T10:05:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If John Mace is aware that I have woken up surrounded by pigs that is odd because I have never woken up surrounded by any farm ammonals… I do have a dog but she sleeps in another room. Since this is a debate forum I would like to know how an accusation suggesting I bed down with pigs has anything to do with the arguments that have been presented here. You can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2091 "2014-03-30T10:08:43Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You can’t be serious. Why not? There is no relationship to this discussion or topic on where I sleep or who with I sleep. I don’t sleep with pigs. There is no truth to any suggestion that I do. DO you have anything to say regarding this topic. I would love to hear what you have to say on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2092 "2014-03-30T10:25:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why not? There is no relationship to this discussion or topic on where I sleep or who with I sleep. I don’t sleep with pigs. There is no truth to any suggestion that I do. > > DO you have anything to say regarding this topic. I would love to hear what you have to say on topic. I am not interested in attempting to communicate with you. Your posts are written in such a sloppy, slipshod manner that it is extremely difficult to determine what you are trying to say, and they demonstrate that you do not understand what others are saying to you. Frankly, I’m amazed that anyone still tries to engage you. I’m simply amused. Go look up “figure of speech”, and then send a scathing email to your old English teacher for not acquainting you with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2093 "2014-03-30T10:34:48Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I am not interested in attempting to communicate with you. Your posts are written in such a sloppy, slipshod manner that it is extremely difficult to determine what you are trying to say, and they demonstrate that you do not understand what others are saying to you. Frankly, I’m amazed that anyone still tries to engage you. > > I’m simply amused. Go look up “figure of speech”, and then send a scathing email to your old English teacher for not acquainting you with the concept. Check. You don’t have anything to say on this topic. If you do please come back. I am not the only one here. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2094 "2014-03-30T10:53:42Z")
On 03-29-2014 at 01:01 PM I posted this point: > [@](#): > > The Central government of Ukraine lost Constitutional, security and military control of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. On 03-29-2014 at 01:43 PM CarnalK responded to that point: > [@](#): > > They didn’t lose control. The leadership changed. I wonder if Carnalk has evidence or reporting that the “changed leadership in Kiev” maintained control of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea in anyway once the leadership was changed? I have seen no reporting that suggests that the central government did maintain control of Crimea with central government police or military units. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2095 "2014-03-30T10:57:44Z")
A sensible Sunday read: [How Vladimir Putin became evil](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/28/why-putin-crimea-strategy-west-villain) > [@](#): > > The Crimean affair led to barely any loss of life, and the population clearly wanted to be part of Russia. The White House’s reaction has been the opposite of its reaction to Chechnya. Why? Because Putin, unlike Yeltsin, is refusing to play ball any more on the things that matter such as Nato expansion, sanctions on Iran, Syria etc. As a result, he has become evil incarnate > [@](#): > > In February 1995 two courageous Russian economists, Andrey Illarionov and Boris Lvin published a text in Moscow News arguing in favour of Chechen independence and the paper (unlike its Western counterparts) also published some excellent critical reports that revealed atrocities on a huge scale, eclipsing the siege of Sarajevo and the massacre in Srebrenica. Rape, torture, homeless refugees and tens of thousands dead was the fate of the Chechens. No problem here for Washington and its EU allies. > > In the calculus of western interests there is no suffering, whatever its scale, which cannot be justified. Chechens, Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis are of little importance. Nonetheless, the contrast between the west’s attitude to the Chechen war and Crimea is startling. > [@](#): > > When Gorbachev agreed the deal on German reunification, the cornerstone of which was that united Germany could remain in Nato, US secretary of state Baker assured him that “there would be no extension of Nato’s jurisdiction one inch to the east”. Gorbachev repeated: “Any extension of the zone of Nato is unacceptable.” Baker’s response: “I agree.” One reason Gorbachev has publicly supported Putin on the Crimea is that his trust in the west was so cruelly betrayed. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2096 "2014-03-30T11:39:41Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > A sensible Sunday read: [How Vladimir Putin became evil](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/28/why-putin-crimea-strategy-west-villain) What we are seeing is the usual drop off of interest when a ‘crisis’ reverts from the ‘on the verge of war and bloodshed’ to the ‘diplomatic stage’ which apparently bores a lot of people. I like the diplomatic stage. It s most interesting and the period when more truth comes out than ever. > [@](#): > > Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has held talks with his US counterpart John Kerry on the sidelines of the nuclear security summit in the Hague. The meeting was largely focused on the situation in Ukraine. > [@](#): > > I don’t expect any breakthrough in Ukrainian issue. It is a very complicated question and I don’t think that both Moscow and Washington are ready to give the common answer to this challenge. But it is clear for me that the intents of contacts between Mr. Lavrov and Mr. Kerry is a good evidence that they are negotiating not only Ukraine but other international issues as well. For example Russia and the US are working hand by hand in solving the Syrian crisis and destructing the Syrian chemical weapons and both countries are responsible for a peaceful solution in the Middle East. And of course the issue of Iran is very important not only for Russia and the US but for the whole world actually. > > There is as I have already said a very important question what to do in Afghanistan after 2014. So I think that so many meetings between Russian Foreign Minister and the US State Secretary prove that they are discussing a whole spectrum of international problems. And of course they talk about Ukraine and of course the Russian approach to the crisis in Ukraine is one thing and the US analyzing the situation in Ukraine – they have different positions. But even in the years of the Cold War both superpowers cooperated and sometimes very successfully. I don’t think that there will be a serious crisis in the bilateral relations. I think that, yes, Russia will continue to conduct its policy which corresponds to its national interests and the US have a different view but both countries will go farther, will cooperate in other areas, that is for sure, because they are very important for each other. Dmitry Vostok Read more: [http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014\_03\_25/Russia-and-US-have-many-areas-to-cooperate-in-political-analyst-7275/](http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_25/Russia-and-US-have-many-areas-to-cooperate-in-political-analyst-7275/) Does anyone object to Kerry meeting with Lavrov without demanding that Crimea be returned to Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2097 "2014-03-30T11:57:44Z")
Last I heard Russia had been sent to detention by the G7. Yeah, really. What do you know, turns out not the wheels of diplomacy continue to turn. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2098 "2014-03-30T14:38:45Z")
Yeah I was sure this would be the end of diplomacy. My mistake but I am so glad we are entering the truthful time. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2099 "2014-03-30T15:03:28Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > A sensible Sunday read: [How Vladimir Putin became evil](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/28/why-putin-crimea-strategy-west-villain) That’s a pretty useless read, it goes on for a few paragraphs of irrelevance about how Russia had a bloodier time with their former satellite states in the past without raising the west’s ire, then concludes: [QUOTE=The generally idiotic op-ed piece] If the US insists on using the Nato magnet to attract the Ukraine, it is likely that Moscow will detach the eastern part of the country. Those who really value Ukrainian sovereignty should opt for real independence and a positive neutrality: neither a plaything of the west nor Moscow. [/QUOTE] Which is completely removed from reality. In the end, if the Ukraine stays out of NATO/EU forever, it’s likely to get eaten by its neighbor to the east someday. If NATO wants to expand and countries want to join, more power to them. If Russia doesn’t like it, hard cheese for them. NATO only threatens them if they’re intending on attacking a member. If all their neighbors are interested in joining NATO, they should probably ask themselves why membership looks so attractive to anyone situated on their border. Seriously, I don’t understand why Russia would be so interested in their former satellites not joining NATO _unless Russia was intending to attack them_. If Russia isn’t planning to attack them, then who cares who your neighbors go war game with? NATO isn’t a threat to Russia except in reaction to Russia attacking a member. Whether it’s wise for NATO to allow an individual former USSR member to join is another discussion that should revolve around the country in question. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2100 "2014-03-30T15:40:07Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > A sensible Sunday read: [How Vladimir Putin became evil](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/28/why-putin-crimea-strategy-west-villain) Translation: Here’s something I agree with. Any attempt to analyze the current situation without reference to [The Budapest Memorandum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) isn’t worth the electrons it’s disseminated with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=104) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=106)