# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 107
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2121 "2014-03-31T11:34:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Ahhh! So your big defense of Russia in this thread has merely been patriotic support for American companies who will get better bargains if they deal with Russia than if they deal with Ukraine. 😉 No. Not at all. You have jumped to a mysterious conclusion to ask me that. My argument has been as you can read it, that Lavrov has a legitimate position on the first event in Kiev that led to the second event involving the separation of Crimea: Here is that argument: > [@](#): > > In the interview with Russian television, Lavrov called the sanctions a “dead-end” strategy that would not achieve results and accused the west of hypocrisy. He said it was inconsistent for the west to refuse to recognize Crimea’s annexation, which followed a referendum on joining Russia that was overwhelmingly approved, while at the same time accepting the new government in Kyiv, which was formed after the pro-Moscow president fled the country. > > “If they are willing to accept the first event as legitimate, then surely they are obliged to acknowledge the second,” Lavrov told Russia’s Channel One television. Read More: [Russia demands Ukraine federation as Kerry, Lavrov meet on crisis in Paris](http://m.thespec.com/news-story/4438755-russia-demands-ukraine-federation-as-kerry-lavrov-meet-on-crisis-in-paris/) My response to you is about the one-sided bias presented when postiing reports that purport to show only Russian self-interest in having or aquiring access to Ukraine’s fertile farmland as if the West and Western big agribusinesses have not self interests in establishing a profitable foothold there. Just pointing out bias. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2122 "2014-03-31T11:45:02Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > He’s always been a fan of countries taking over other countries with beneficial consequences for American corporations. Can’t stop talking about it. That is false. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2123 "2014-03-31T12:41:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That is false. Name one. Weren’t you in favour of the Iraq invasion? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2124 "2014-03-31T13:22:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That is false. Name one. You are so easy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2125 "2014-03-31T14:21:16Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > I find it depressing that the Ukrainian people won’t defend their homeland with their lives as well as with their words. You do not successfully fight a war by dying. You successfully fight a war by making your enemies die. If Ukraine were to put up a fight, the only thing that would change is that Ukrainians would die in droves and they’d lose more than they already have. What you are suggesting isn’t self-defense, it’s suicide. There is no honor in suicide. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2126 "2014-03-31T14:27:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You do not successfully fight a war by dying. You successfully fight a war by making your enemies die. > > If Ukraine were to put up a fight, the only thing that would change is that Ukrainians would die in droves and they’d lose more than they already have. What you are suggesting isn’t self-defense, it’s suicide. There is no honor in suicide. [_Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_Decorum_Est) ---
**Author:** ![Falesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Falesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falesh)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2127 "2014-03-31T15:18:05Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > Several things: > > [ol] > [li] **Wouldn’t that be “Gandhi?”** - Pretty sure that the “H” was further along in his name.Also, you should probably read a history book or two as India’s independence came because the UK was unable to afford its empire, not due to any non-violent protesting. The British could have locked up Gandhi and kept on going into the 50’s or 60’s if they could have afforded to do so.[/li][li] **I have no clue that there won’t be a shooting war in the Ukraine** - I don’t have a crystal ball and neither do you. If you do, then you should have probably spotted the Russian invasion of Crimea and called a few weeks sooner.[/li][li]Please feel free to demonstrate a major international issue that has been resolved peacefully in the last 150 years on the scale of the current imbroglio between Russia and Ukraine. Please also demonstrate a military invasion which has be peacefully turned back during that same time period.[/li][/ol] > > Anyway, you gave your opinion of the situation and I don’t see any merit in it. Again, if Ukraine wants Western assistance then they should demonstrate why that assistance won’t simply be flushed down the drain. If not, then I wish them good luck in rejoining the failing Russian empire. As you say we have both made our case and I see no point in continuing either. However I would like to pick up your first, bold, point about my misspelling. I am Dyslexic, I reread my posts multiple times before submitting them as well as check for any errors with the spell checker. Unfortunately some things do slip through, mainly stuff that the spell checker cannot spot, like names or correctly spelt words that mean something else. Fortunately most people correctly deem that imperfect spelling is not a sign of unintelligence or a poorly thought out argument and let it slide. Others, who maybe feel they are not winning an argument, grasp at any errors and shout them out loud. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2128 "2014-03-31T21:53:06Z")
I thought I’d post [this](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/31/opinion/russia-euphoria-crimea/index.html?iid=article_sidebar) opinion piece from CNN here, since it’s again another interesting (to me) view point on an aspect that has been handwaved away by both those who support Russia’s viewpoint and those who just seem to want to bash Obama/US/Western Europe for the supposed tepid and silly/ridiculous sanctions: > [@](#): > > Starting a war to solve a domestic problem is now a Russian tradition. The first and second Chechen wars had political motives. Both were intended to distract attention from the consequences of privatization and the second brought Putin to power. The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin. > > The earlier acts of aggression, however, did not evoke a strong international response. This time, Russia faces full scale war if it invades eastern Ukraine and, at the very least, sanctions if it does not withdraw from Crimea. It is ill equipped to handle either of these challenges. > > Putin has used rhetoric reminiscent of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s, insisting in his speech on March 18 that “Russia was not simply robbed, it was plundered” and denouncing “national traitors.” The regime he heads, however, is tied to the West inextricably. > [@](#): > > Russia’s wealthy, who are dependent on connections to the regime, keep their money, families and assets abroad. They avoid Russian taxes with the help of businesses registered in off-shore zones and also acquire foreign passports and buy private planes in part so that they can leave Russia quickly and discreetly if that becomes necessary. One foreign lawyer in Moscow with experience of the elite told me: “Their lack of patriotism is astounding.” > > Russia’s businessmen depend on the West because the lawlessness inside Russia allows for assets to be seized by anyone who has political power. Large companies can be seized by state enterprises and small and medium-sized companies by persons connected to the security services. > > Businessmen make far more money than they could in a comparable situation in the West because most significant Russian businesses are protected monopolies. The ability to dispense with competition, however, is the result of political patronage that can be affected by the slightest change in the balance of power. > > Under these circumstances, Russia’s businessmen do not keep capital in Russia and panic at the slightest threat. Western sanctions against Russian were relatively tepid but, for the Russian elite, the precedent was unnerving. Capital flight, which had been running at about $8 billion a month is now expected to amount to $70 billion for the first quarter. > [@](#): > > So far, Russians have not paid a price for their government’s acts of aggression. The fall in the value of the ruble and the reduction in the real income of the population began this year independent of the events in Crimea. But these tendencies are now set to continue and accelerate. This is a potential threat to Putin’s political base. Since the beginning of the year, the cost of food products in Russia has risen by 25%. > > The impending economic crisis will be explained to the Russian population as the result of foreign sabotage. The propaganda in the official press which equates the Ukrainians with Nazis and treats the West as aggressors has been accompanied by the blocking of the critical websites, grani,ru., yezhednevny [zhurnal.ru](http://zhurnal.ru) and [kasparov.ru](http://kasparov.ru) and actions against the radio station, Ekho Moskvy and the internet television station, TV Rain ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2129 "2014-03-31T23:18:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I thought I’d post [this](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/31/opinion/russia-euphoria-crimea/index.html?iid=article_sidebar) opinion piece from CNN here, since it’s again another interesting (to me) view point on an aspect that has been handwaved away by both those who support Russia’s viewpoint and those who just seem to want to bash Obama/US/Western Europe for the supposed tepid and silly/ridiculous sanctions: That is a pathetic misguided opinion just because of this statement: \>“The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin.”\< It was a defensive and retaliatory strike to stop ethnic Russians from being slaughtered under Georgia heavy artillary assault. The EU Commisdion determined Russia was justified to respond but went too far. Calling it an invasion leaves out the ‘justified’ part. For god’s sake, Russian peacekeepers (Russian Troops) were being killed and wounded under military assault by Georgian forces. Every leader of any nation having capabilty to retaliate against Georgia’s criminal murderous action would have done what Medvedev did. This analysis is obviously so biased against Russia its worthless. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2130 "2014-04-01T00:17:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Weren’t you in favour of the Iraq invasion? NO. Not at all. Never. I was never in favor of kicking UN Inspectors out of Iraq and invading. I Marched in Protest in DC against ending inspections in order to invade. And for that I and fellow marchers were called such things as “Saddam Lovers” by ‘young beer drinking republicans’ standing on a balcony above the street we marched on and under their \*\*‘Young Republicans’ \*\*banner… all proud to be supporting the idea for war. So the truth is, I agreed with Putin’s opposition to the invasion of Iraq and I agreed wholly in 2003 with Dominique de Villepin who was France’s Foreign Minister who was vehemently opposed to the proposed US and UK idea of invading Iraq to disarm it of WMD. Foreign Minister de Villepin expresses my sentiments preceding the invasion perfectly and clearly right here: Speech by M. Dominique de Villepin, Minister of Foreign Affairs, at the United Nations Security Council, New York 14.02.2003. The latter part of the speech: > [@](#): > > So let us allow the United Nations inspectors the time they need for their mission to succeed. But let us together be vigilant and ask Mr Blix and Mr ElBaradei to report regularly to the Council. France, for her part, proposes another meeting on 14 March at ministerial level to assess the situation. We will then be able to judge the progress that has been made and what remains to be done. > > 1. Given this context, _ **the use of force is not justified at this time** _. There is an alternative to war: disarming Iraq through inspections. Furthermore, premature recourse to the military option would be fraught with risks: > > The authority of our action is based today on the unity of the international community. Premature military intervention would jeopardize this unity, which would detract from its legitimacy and, in the long run, its effectiveness. > > Such intervention could have incalculable consequences for the stability of this scarred and fragile region. It would compound the sense of injustice, increase tensions and risk paving the way to other conflicts. > > We all share the same priority – that of fighting terrorism mercilessly. This fight requires total determination. Since the tragedy of 11 September this has been one of the highest priorities facing our peoples. And France, who has been struck hard by this terrible scourge several times, is wholly mobilized in this fight which concerns us all and which we must pursue together. That was the purpose of the Security Council meeting held on 20 January, at France’s initiative. > > Ten days ago, the US Secretary of State, Mr Powell, reported the alleged links between al-Qaida and the regime in Baghdad. Given the present state of our research and intelligence, in liaison with our allies, nothing allows us to establish such links. On the other hand, we must assess the impact that currently disputed military action would have on this plan. Would not such intervention today be liable to exacerbate the divisions between societies, cultures and peoples, divisions that nurture terrorism? > > France has said all along: we do not exclude the possibility that force may have to be used one day if the inspectors’ reports concluded that it was impossible to continue the inspections. The Council would then have to take a decision, and its members would have to face up to all their responsibilities. In such an eventuality, I want to recall here the questions I emphasized at our last debate on 4 February which we must answer: > > - To what extent do the nature and extent of the threat justify the immediate recourse to force? > > - How do we ensure that the considerable risks of such intervention can actually be kept under control? > > In any case, in such an eventuality, it is indeed the unity of the international community that would guarantee its effectiveness. Similarly, it is the United Nations that will be tomorrow at the centre of the peace to be built whatever happens. > > To those who are wondering in anguish when and how we are going to succumb to war, I would like to tell them that nothing, at any time, in this Security Council, will be done in haste, misunderstanding, suspicion or fear. > > In this temple of the United Nations, we are the guardians of an ideal, the guardians of a conscience. The onerous responsibility and immense honour we have must lead us to give priority to disarmament in peace. > > This message comes to you today from an old country, France, from a continent like mine, Europe, that has known wars, occupation and barbarity. A country that does not forget and knows everything she owes to the freedom-fighters who came from America and elsewhere. And yet has never ceased to stand upright in the face of history and before mankind. She wishes resolutely to act with all the members of the international community. Faithful to her values, she believes in our ability to build together a better world./. Read the entire speech if you wish to know my views: [http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Speech-by-M-Dominique-de-Villepin,4954](http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Speech-by-M-Dominique-de-Villepin,4954) What did you do to oppose the war? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2131 "2014-04-01T00:21:47Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You are so easy. I see you have NOT been able to name one. Carnalk asked me a question and my answer to him is NO. So what do you have? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2132 "2014-04-01T00:29:50Z")
Who to believe? > [@](#): > > Earlier on Monday Ukraine’s defence ministry said there had been a gradual withdrawal of Russian troops from its border. > > “In recent days, the Russian forces have been gradually withdrawing from the border,” Oleksiy Dmytrashkivskiy, Ukraine’s defence ministry spokesman, told AFP news agency. > > US and EU officials estimated over the weekend that Russia’s sudden military buildup along Ukraine’s eastern frontier had reached between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers. > > Kiev’s Centre for Military and Political Studies analyst Dmytro Tymchuk said on Monday that his sources had told him that Russia had only 10,000 soldiers remaining near the border by Monday morning. Read More: [Russia pulls some troops from Ukraine border | News | Al Jazeera](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/russia-partly-withdraws-from-ukraine-border-2014331143547644198.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2133 "2014-04-01T02:33:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You do not successfully fight a war by dying. You successfully fight a war by making your enemies die. > > If Ukraine were to put up a fight, the only thing that would change is that Ukrainians would die in droves and they’d lose more than they already have. What you are suggesting isn’t self-defense, it’s suicide. There is no honor in suicide. Agreed, you might as well attack the Danes for surrendering to Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2134 "2014-04-01T02:39:53Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That is a pathetic misguided opinion just because of this statement: > > \>“The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin.”\< > > It was a defensive and retaliatory strike to stop ethnic Russians from being slaughtered under Georgia heavy artillary assault. The EU Commisdion determined Russia was justified to respond but went too far. Calling it an invasion leaves out the ‘justified’ part. > > For god’s sake, Russian peacekeepers (Russian Troops) were being killed and wounded under military assault by Georgian forces. Every leader of any nation having capabilty to retaliate against Georgia’s criminal murderous action would have done what Medvedev did. > > This analysis is obviously so biased against Russia its worthless. Are you by any chance a fan of Said El-Saahaaf? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2135 "2014-04-01T03:03:19Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > [Demonstration in Odessa today, 30.03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSC1opCoN6o) > > - that’s a pretty big demonstration. I thought it was mostly over at this point, but now I wonder if it is gaining momentum. I see it’s a demonstration, but what for/against? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2136 "2014-04-01T03:09:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I see it’s a demonstration, but what for/against? The name/slogan of it in the title of youtube video is “Fascism will not pass”. What “fascism” - who knows. This is Odessa - they are famous practical jokers. Maybe it’s a joke. Wonder what excuse NFBW will find for Russia grasping for Odessa. After all Odessa has been Ukrainian since at least 1920 and 62% of the population of it is Ukrainian. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2137 "2014-04-01T03:12:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I see it’s a demonstration, but what for/against? It’s Pro-Russia. They figured out from watching pro-EU that its not elections that govern, its protest. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2138 "2014-04-01T03:20:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The name/slogan of it in the title of youtube video is “Fascism will not pass”. What “fascism” - who knows. This is Odessa - they are famous practical jokers. Maybe it’s a joke. > > Wonder what excuse NFBW will find for Russia grasping for Odessa. After all Odessa has been Ukrainian since at least 1920 and 62% of the population of it is Ukrainian. Probably its not. A small number of Ukrainian right wing nationalists in Kiev got their way through protest and violence in February. So why not a small number of Russians just protesting. Should the new un-elected givernment gun peaceful protesters down for demanding closer ties to Russia? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2139 "2014-04-01T03:29:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The name/slogan of it in the title of youtube video is “Fascism will not pass”. What “fascism” - who knows. This is Odessa - they are famous practical jokers. Maybe it’s a joke. > > Wonder what excuse NFBW will find for Russia grasping for Odessa. After all Odessa has been Ukrainian since at least 1920 and 62% of the population of it is Ukrainian. Russia lost 11 million soldiers and 7 million civilians to fascism in WWII to fascists. They might be more sensitive about it than Terr is. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2140 "2014-04-01T03:33:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you by any chance a fan of Said El-Saahaaf? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=106) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=108)