# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 108
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2141 "2014-04-01T03:39:06Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Russia lost 11 million soldiers and 7 million civilians to fascism in WWII to fascists. They might be more sensitive about it than Terr is. Sure. What Russian propaganda machine calls “fascists” has about as much to do with WWII “fascists” as “Soup Nazi” in Seinfeld had to do with Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2142 "2014-04-01T03:56:34Z")
[Putin’s Imaginary Nazis](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/putins-imaginary-nazis-105217.html?hp=r3#.Uzo42YUvkYh) here, to compare, are [Russian real Nazis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2143 "2014-04-01T04:25:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > NO. Not at all. Never. I was never in favor of kicking UN Inspectors out of Iraq and invading. ? Well I’m a little confused. You said it was hypocrisy for the U.S. to oppose the Crimea annexation after they invaded Iraq and bombed Kosovo. That indicates an equivalency. Since you support the Crimea annexation it follows that you support those other actions. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2144 "2014-04-01T04:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > This analysis is obviously so biased against Russia its worthless. And your own cites and language that constantly refers to thugs and fascists with fascist imagery is completely objective, right? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2145 "2014-04-01T08:24:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well I’m a little confused. You said it was hypocrisy for the U.S. to oppose the Crimea annexation after they invaded Iraq and bombed Kosovo. That indicates an equivalency. Since you support the Crimea annexation it follows that you support those other actions. Don’t be confused: **At 03-01-2014 on 08:22 AM NotfooledbyW wrote:** > [@](#): > > I find it interesting that the mention of offensive military aggression and non-diplomatic provocation from one nation against another does not include what happened in March of 2003 where a sovereign nation was no threat to world peace and no genocide was in progress because that invaded nation allowed the UNSC in to its hearts content to verify whether or not WMD were present. > > The US UK invasion of Iraq hat ended diplomacy that was working at the time is the primary example offensive military unnecessary aggression across territorial established borders since WWIi. > > And this is about what is perceived as provocation and invasion and military aggression by Putin against the bloc of nations that kicked the UN out of Iraq then bombed and invaded with ground troops and occupied the country for a decade. Putin advised the idiot Iraq invaders at the time it was wrong. > > Putin’s current ‘provocation’ into Ukraine in perspective is a reaction to the violent change in government there. What Putin is doing is reacting to what could become a dangerous and deadly situation for Russian speaking Ukrainians if things deteriorate. > A show of force may not be a bad thing oversll until the UNSC gets in contact with the new government. > > But the same nations that killed diplomacy to kill people in Iraq when no danger or threat was present need to look at the logs in their eyes when pointing to the speck in Putin’s eye right now. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2146 "2014-04-01T08:29:22Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. Really, why not? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2147 "2014-04-01T09:00:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Putin’s Imaginary Nazis](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/putins-imaginary-nazis-105217.html?hp=r3#.Uzo42YUvkYh) > > here, to compare, are [Russian real Nazis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity) What Putin actually said: Address by President of the Russian Federation March 18, 2014, 15:50 The Kremlin, Moscow > [@](#): > > I would like to reiterate that I understand those who came out on Maidan with peaceful slogans against corruption, inefficient state management and poverty. The right to peaceful protest, democratic procedures and elections exist for the sole purpose of replacing the authorities that do not satisfy the people. However, those who stood behind the latest events in Ukraine had a different agenda: they were preparing yet another government takeover; they wanted to seize power and would stop short of nothing. They resorted to terror, murder and riots. Nationalists, neo-Nazis, Russophobes and anti-Semites executed this coup. They continue to set the tone in Ukraine to this day. > > The new so-called authorities began by introducing a draft law to revise the language policy, which was a direct infringement on the rights of ethnic minorities. However, they were immediately ‘disciplined’ by the foreign sponsors of these so-called politicians. One has to admit that the mentors of these current authorities are smart and know well what such attempts to build a purely Ukrainian state may lead to. The draft law was set aside, but clearly reserved for the future. Hardly any mention is made of this attempt now, probably on the presumption that people have a short memory. Nevertheless, we can all clearly see the intentions of these ideological heirs of Bandera, Hitler’s accomplice during World War II. > > It is also obvious that there is no legitimate executive authority in Ukraine now, nobody to talk to. Many government agencies have been taken over by the impostors, but they do not have any control in the country, while they themselves – and I would like to stress this – are often controlled by radicals. In some cases, you need a special permit from the militants on Maidan to meet with certain ministers of the current government. This is not a joke – this is reality. > > Those who opposed the coup were immediately threatened with repression. Naturally, the first in line here was Crimea, the Russian-speaking Crimea. In view of this, the residents of Crimea and Sevastopol turned to Russia for help in defending their rights and lives, in preventing the events that were unfolding and are still underway in Kiev, Donetsk, Kharkov and other Ukrainian cities. > > Naturally, we could not leave this plea unheeded; we could not abandon Crimea and its residents in distress. This would have been betrayal on our part. > > First, we had to help create conditions so that the residents of Crimea for the first time in history were able to peacefully express their free will regarding their own future. However, what do we hear from our colleagues in Western Europe and North America? They say we are violating norms of international law. Firstly, it’s a good thing that they at least remember that there exists such a thing as international law – better late than never. > **[Address by President of the Russian Federation](http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/20603)** > > Vladimir Putin addressed State Duma deputies, Federation Council members, heads of Russian regions and civil society representatives in the Kremlin. ‘’ ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2148 "2014-04-01T09:15:50Z")
Putin’s speeches are so easy to pick apart, it’s a shame that there are so many people - in Russia and abroad - willing to stand by his every word. I’ll be genuinely worried if Putin, much like Castro or Chavez before him, becomes popular among left-wingers in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2149 "2014-04-01T09:23:17Z")
Considering his stance on homosexuals, that might be unlikely. Of course, one never knows what a useful idiot will decide. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2150 "2014-04-01T10:19:04Z")
[GTA to Field Crimean Prosecutor General Natalia Poklonskaya as Main Character](http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gta-field-crimean-prosecutor-general-natalia-poklonskaya-main-character-1442815) :dubious: 1 April? Also the Ukrainian flagship Hetman Sahaidachny is said to have left her Odessa port with half the crew, heading towards Crimea flying the Russian flag. Don’t know if its true. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2151 "2014-04-01T12:02:11Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I see you have NOT been able to name one. > > Carnalk asked me a question and my answer to him is NO. > > So what do you have? I have your ridiculous fact- and consistency-free postings. My point, delivered with no small amount of sarcasm to which you seem oblivious, is that what you blithely condemn in the US’s actions in Iraq you blithely condone in Russia’s action in Crimea. > [@Batistuta](#): > > Putin’s speeches are so easy to pick apart, it’s a shame that there are so many people - in Russia and abroad - willing to stand by his every word. I’ll be genuinely worried if Putin, much like Castro or Chavez before him, becomes popular among left-wingers in the West. He seems to be gaining popularity among the flakier right-wingers, actually; Steven Seagal has recently been talking about what good friends he and Putin are. And that’s not counting the fundamentalist types who talk about how “moral” Putin is for Russia’s persecution of homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2152 "2014-04-01T12:31:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > He seems to be gaining popularity among the flakier right-wingers, actually; Steven Seagal has recently been talking about what good friends he and Putin are. And that’s not counting the fundamentalist types who talk about how “moral” Putin is for Russia’s persecution of homosexuals. Aye, and the same is happening in the UK (Nigel Farage seems to be secretly in love with Putin). But here in continental Europe, I’ve heard many left-wingers support Putin because he is “standing up to the West” and all that. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2153 "2014-04-01T13:00:52Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And your own cites and language that constantly refers to thugs and fascists with fascist imagery is completely objective, right? 😛 Some measure of fascist thugs participated crashing through police barricades to get ont the equivalent of the White House lawn near Kyev to threaten the prsudent’s life. These were fascists in the lead promoting violent attacks on government property and apparently you are defending them by pretending they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2154 "2014-04-01T13:13:03Z")
[The Numbers Vladimir Putin Doesn’t Want You to See](http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/03/numbers-vladimir-putin-doesnt-want-you-to-see) Despite a recent slight uptick in births versus deaths, life expectancy now stands at 64 for males and 76 for women (137th and 100th in the world, respectively). According to the U.N.’s World Health Organization, the life expectancy for a 15-year-old boy in Haiti is three years higher than for a Russian boy the same age. A drop in fertility by 50 percent between 1987 and 1999 has resulted in a reduced number of women now at childbearing age, which is beginning to affect the country in a major way: Two thirds of all births in Russia take place among women between the ages of 20 and 29, and this population will decline from 13 million currently to 7 or 8 million in the coming years. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2155 "2014-04-01T13:16:29Z")
It’s funny (not 'ha-ha" funny) to see Putin call others “Nationalists” and “Fascists”. Even funnier (again, not “ha-ha” funny) to see his apologists in the west use the sane smear tactics. It’s the same thing we see form the pathetic right wingers in the US, just dressed in different clothing. Don’t like Obama? He’s a SOCIALIST! No need to put up an actual argument about policy, just throw out some inflammatory rhetoric. Appeal to emotion is a fallacy, but it sure works! Of course, not all of us are fooled by Putin and his effort to dredge up WWII imagery and win the propaganda war. What happened in Kiev wasn’t a popular revolt against a corrupt politician. It was “Nationalists” and “Fascists” forcing their views on the oppressed “Russian Speakers”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2156 "2014-04-01T13:51:20Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Some measure of fascist thugs participated crashing through police barricades to get ont the equivalent of the White House lawn near Kyev to threaten the prsudent’s life. These were fascists in the lead promoting violent attacks on government property and apparently you are defending them by pretending they don’t exist. From Putin’s, ah, lips to your keyboard. At least when I’m posting opinion pieces I’m making it clear they ARE opinions. As with other posters, you nitpick out one thing in order to dismiss the entire opinion, while conversely you swallow any propaganda Putin et al want to spew out as if it’s gospel…and don’t understand why some people are laughing at you, or why so many 'dopers have been hospitalized for eye strain do to rollage in this and other threads. I think we are getting the the point that the Surgeon General needs to issue a warning…maybe as a permanent signature or something. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2157 "2014-04-01T14:00:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well I’m a little confused. You said it was hypocrisy for the U.S. to oppose the Crimea annexation after they invaded Iraq and bombed Kosovo. That indicates an equivalency. Since you support the Crimea annexation it follows that you support those other actions. You miss some critical major factual difference between a US led invasion in 2003 and a Russian invasion in 2014. [ul] [li]Civilian deaths in 2003 = 100,000. / 2014 = 1[/li][/ul] [ul]UN Inspections were in place and working a was the preferable viable peaceful option to achieve objective in 2003. The peaceful option was ignored and bypassed for war - deliberately and deceivingly by several of the war proponents involved / 2014 was a peacefully conducted operation with the exception of one fatality. That fatality is about 100 times less that occurred at the riots in Kiev that triggered the 2014 ‘invasion’ [/ul] I could go on but I hope you see what you’ve missed. Putin did not drop a single bomb on a civilian’s home, kill, wound and displace millions. Putin had a better plan and damned near perfect execution of that plan plus Putin was invited to do it by the majority of ethnically related people’s sharing a religious tradition. 2003 was predominately Christian culture invading and occupying and meeting resistance of an Islamic culture . There was absolutely no justification for invasion in 2003 / there are circumstance that justify a peaceful annexation of Crimea to Russia specifically when done with relatively no shots fired by either side. It’s as if 2014 was meant to be and 2003 was a horrible unnecessary atrocity and should not be forgotten as such. Such as seeing the Bush family in the White House ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2158 "2014-04-01T14:20:33Z")
So the reason why you support the invasion of Crimea but not the one in Iraq is that Putin’s actions have been relatively bloodless? After what number of dead civilians do you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable invasions? Also, do you realise that if Ukraine had done what most countries do when they’re invaded, we’d be looking at thousands of dead people already? The fact that the Ukrainian government’s response has been peaceful does not make Putin’s actions any less serious ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2159 "2014-04-01T14:32:44Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > So the reason why you support the invasion of Crimea but not the one in Iraq is that Putin’s actions have been relatively bloodless? After what number of dead civilians do you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable invasions? > > Also, do you realise that if Ukraine had done what most countries do when they’re invaded, we’d be looking at thousands of dead people already? The fact that the Ukrainian government’s response has been peaceful does not make Putin’s actions any less serious It’s another example of interesting double standard. I mean, not many people were killed in the ‘fascist takeover’ either, yet good old NFBW takes serious offense to that (while ignoring the fact that most of those killed were on the protesters side at the behest of his second main man, Yanukovych). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2160 "2014-04-01T14:38:24Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > So the reason why you support the invasion of Crimea but not the one in Iraq is that Putin’s actions have been relatively bloodless? After what number of dead civilians do you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable invasions? > > Also, do you realise that if Ukraine had done what most countries do when they’re invaded, we’d be looking at thousands of dead people already? The fact that the Ukrainian government’s response has been peaceful does not make Putin’s actions any less serious For a bunch of Fascist Nationalists, they sure are peaceful, aren’t they? Funny, that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=107) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=109)