# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/201 "2014-03-02T10:25:29Z")
Crimea’s deputy prime minister Rustam Temirgaliev announced that the Ukrainian armed forces have all but surrendered their military capabilities and that no active units remain in the Crimea. “The entire Ukrainian armed forces stationed on the Crimean territory have been blocked a number have been disarmed, while another big portion is switching to the Crimean side” Interfax ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/202 "2014-03-02T10:37:42Z")
> [@](#): > > “The BBC has seen what appear to be Russian troops digging trenches on the Crimean border.” > > BBC News Maybe it’s graves or maybe Putin is digging some sand bunkers for Obama for when he comes to play golf … ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/203 "2014-03-02T10:38:03Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > **Ukrainian Pravy Sector Party leader calls on ‘Most wanted Islamic Terrorist’ Dukka Umarov to activate his fight again and lead a jihad against Russia with the armed Ukrainian opposition who support the Chechen rebels** Can you at least tell us what your sources are so we can mock their lack of credibility? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/204 "2014-03-02T10:47:38Z")
Breaking **5000 Bandera guerillas heading to Kharkiv and civil defences ready to intercept** This is going to be messy ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/205 "2014-03-02T10:52:48Z")
I have little to contribute, except: **1.** Slavs **2.** [http://i.imgur.com/ERTAf2T.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/ERTAf2T.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/206 "2014-03-02T11:00:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** , please accept my humblest apologies; you were the OP, not **marmite**. I did not mean to lump you in with him in any way. No problem. I’m following the thread but have family visiting this weekend so don’t hVe time to post more and take part in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/207 "2014-03-02T11:23:27Z")
Shhhh! Please… everybody – PIPE DOWN! The prime minster of **Australia** **ooohs and ahhhs** the honerable, Tony Abbott is about speak on the Ukrainian matter: [http://i.imgur.com/1FGocE0.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/1FGocE0.jpg) Problem: **SOLVED!** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pidril\_Pidrilych](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f1d935/32.png) [@Pidril\_Pidrilych](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pidril_Pidrilych)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/208 "2014-03-02T12:01:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So your point has nothing to do with the fact that **terrorism is a more serious threat to the United States than Romney** and Obama was correct to point that out? I’m sorry, don’t want to be rude, but are you insane? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/209 "2014-03-02T12:36:40Z")
> [@Pidril\_Pidrilych](#): > > I’m sorry, don’t want to be rude, but are you insane? … than Romney _believed_…Oops. But the point still stands either way, since terrorism is a greater threat to the US than Russia or Mitt Romney, so I’m still correct no matter how you slice it! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/210 "2014-03-02T13:44:44Z")
That would depend on whether PUtin considers former Soviet Republics to be in the Russian sphere of influence even if they are NATO members. Remember, an attack on a NATO member is an attack on the United States. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/211 "2014-03-02T14:27:16Z")
> [@Pidril\_Pidrilych](#): > > I’m sorry, don’t want to be rude, but are you insane? > [@Ravenman](#): > > … than Romney _believed_…Oops. > > But the point still stands either way, since terrorism is a greater threat to the US than Russia or Mitt Romney, so I’m still correct no matter how you slice it! I see Pidril Pidrilych is responding to typos but not to the meat of your argument. It is not hard to understand why that is. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/212 "2014-03-02T14:31:05Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > When the EU says, “\*Russia’s initial actions in fighting back against attacks on its personnel in South Ossetia were justified” \* it means that the Georgian attacks on Russian personnel came first. > > You can cite all the Russophobes in the pundit world you want. The facts have been established. Sakaashvilli should be in the Hague for a stupid offensive military attack that killed hundreds of people including Russian Peacekeepers. > > The Totten link is dated in August 2008 so he was not a liar when he wrote what you cited. But at this point in time Totten has been credibly shown to be wrong at a cost of $15 million dollars paid by the EU. No, the argument isn’t as to whether the Russians were right to defend themselves from attack, no one is saying they are not, however, they did instigate the conflict in order to occupy Abkhazia and South Ossetia, it has nothing to do with being ‘Russophobic’ it has to do with Putin and his allies having done a repeated pattern of behvaiour and him establishing Russian hegemony in its near abroad, I do not understand why you cannot realise this whilst providing links to EU commission reports. > [@](#): > > **NotfooledbyW** > Michael Totten whoever he is - is wrong. The Georgian rocket assault and armored advance on Tskhinvali began hours before the Russian tanks came through the Roki tunnel. I knew it for a fact on the night it happened… my wife speaks fluent Russian and on that night we got copies of **live TV news reports from Moscow** where a Russian officer was on the phone in Tskhinvali being shelled and told the anchors on **TV in Moscow** that they were holding up and he did not think the tanks needed to be sent in. I checked the timeline and verified it with other reports and Russia had requested an emergency meeting at the UNSC trying to get the shelling stopped before they sent the tanks in. Live TV reports from Moscow, yeah, so why would it be in the Kremlins best interest to report of a South Ossestian militia provoking the Georgian armed forces? Do you not see the bias you claim I have myself in your own posts? Let’s see the EU report you have given It states, > [@](#): > > **EU-sponsored report** > The Mission is not in a position to consider as sufficiently substantiated the Georgian claim concerning a large-scale Russian military incursion into South Ossetia before 8 August 2008. However, there are a number of reports and publications, including of Russian origin, indicating the provision by the Russian side of **training and military equipment to South Ossetian and Abkhaz forces prior to the August 2008 conflict**. Additionally there seems to have been an influx of volunteers or mercenaries from the territory of the Russian Federation to > South Ossetia through the Roki tunnel and over the Caucasus range in early August, as well as the presence of some Russian forces in South Ossetia, other than the Russian JPKF battalion, prior to 14.30 hours on 8 August 2008. Sakashvili was an idiot, but to allege that Putin wasn’t provoking such a confrontation from behind the scenes is ridiculous. If Russians were there to keep the peace there was no need to arm militia volunteers with substantial amounts of military equipment. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/213 "2014-03-02T14:33:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But the point still stands either way, since terrorism is a greater threat to the US than Russia or Mitt Romney, so I’m still correct no matter how you slice it! > [@adaher](#): > > That would depend on whether PUtin considers former Soviet Republics to be in the Russian sphere of influence even if they are NATO members. Remember, an attack on a NATO member is an attack on the United States. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. What on earth could be your point? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/214 "2014-03-02T14:36:55Z")
> [@Pidril\_Pidrilych](#): > > Exactly my point. > The President was loud and clear yesterday, warning Putin that invasion of Ukraine would be a “grave mistake” and warning Russia to stay out of Ukraine. > The Russians immediately backed down,announcing they’d invade Ukraine at their leisure. > The President’s authority and masterful handling of Putin is once again on display. What do you call it when on the one hand someone gives the US and the President supreme universal powers to move heaven and earth at a whim, but then proceeds to criticize and ridicule the US and the President when they fail to exercise the magical abilities they never had? Is it called being disingenuous, or is it just old fashioned bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/215 "2014-03-02T15:11:05Z")
American CBS TV crew robbed by Ukraine MOI troops patrolling the Crimea border who stole their body armour and then put it on themselves! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/216 "2014-03-02T15:19:58Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Sakashvili was an idiot, but to allege that Putin wasn’t provoking such a confrontation from behind the scenes is ridiculous. If Russians were there to keep the peace there was no need to arm militia volunteers with substantial amounts of military equipment. Sakaashvilli is more than an idiot - he ordered the killing of hundreds of human beings for no justifiable reason. No ongoing small arms fire disputes between Georgian landowners and South Ossetians were a sufficient provocation to justify the slaughter that Sakaashvilli ordered to start during the Olympics no less. Putin’s build up on the border was not to annex two non-strategic pieces of land. It was in response to provocations from NATO which included US military advisers on the ground being financed by Western governments and energy and arms conglomerates such as James Baker’s group allied with the anti-Russian likes of slick George Soros to prepare Georgia’s military so that dysfunctional state could become a NATO Member You want to bring up Putin’s reaction as the only provocation go ahead. I see the lack of objectivity in your western centric views. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/217 "2014-03-02T15:57:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Ukraine is not a member of NATO. What on earth could be your point? I’m guessing here, but I would assume our friend **adaher** ’s thinking is that if Putin sees Ukraine as being in the Russian sphere of influence because it is a former Soviet Republic does he view Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania the same way? After all, those three _are_ member’s of NATO. Like I said, I’m just guessing but if that is what was meant I have to admit it is a valid question. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/218 "2014-03-02T16:07:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Baron Greenback (Post 17152690) This is rapidly sliding out of control [Russian parliament approves troop deployment in Ukraine - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26400035) Putin asks his upper house to rubber-stamp the use of Russian forces. The west can’t do anything to stop this now. \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > (-NotfooledbyW 03-01-2014 10:05 AM) Stop what? Seriously stop what? \<“Cite” > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > (-Baron Greenback 03-01-2014 10:33) Russia flexing the muscle in another sovereign territory. It is an actual violation of territory after all. No world power can ‘stop’ Putin from flexing his muscle and violating a sovereign nation’s territory if that is what Putin decides to do an there is no military capability to stop him. But you said the west cannot stop this from spiraling ‘out of control’ and I don’t see that at all. Consider the west has a problem since the US invasion of Iraq was an atrocity committed by the west despite the fact that the UNSC and the agreed to inspection process had everything under control when the west decided to subvert that peaceful resolution and bomb, and invade and occupy a sovereign nation and pissing all over international law and the UNSC apparatus when they did it. So now consider that Putin has ‘violated Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty’ in reaction to at least a perceived potential threat to the lives and health and well being of a good number of Russian speaking residents in the part of Ukraine where Putin has moved troops in or off the bases that have been established there for years. The government of Ukraine has just been non-democratically overturned and a new order has taken over. Hardly a beacon of democratic security and stability that Putin just decided on a whim to subvert and violate. There’s those factors… But another point is that this is not 'spiraling out of control so there is not much to stop yet. The west should recognizes its own failings with regard to Iraq and allow some room for this to end with all diplomacy and peaceful resolution that we saw working in Iraq the couple of months prior to the US and UK massive bombing attack and ground invasion. Bush and Blair did not go into Iraq peacefully… they bombed and sent in tanks with guns ablazing… At this point Putin’s invasion has been walk in say hello and we are here to protect you until the mess in the rest of Ukraine gets itself smoothed out. The only thing spiraling out of control is Russophobia… if you stand back and view the big picture going back to 2003 at least. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/219 "2014-03-02T16:15:26Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No world power can ‘stop’ Putin from flexing his muscle and violating a sovereign nation’s territory if that is what Putin decides to do an there is no military capability to stop him. > > Consider the west has a problem since the US invasion of Iraq was an atrocity committed by the west despite the fact that the UNSC and the agreed to inspection process had everything under control when the west decided to subvert that peaceful resolution and bomb, and invade and occupy a sovereign nation and pissing all over international law and the UNSC apparatus when they did it. Firstly, you might be confusing “The West” with “The USA”. I believe that 5 foreign countries took part in the illegal invasion of Iraq. Not Germany, not France, not Sweden, not Austria, not Canada, and so on. Secondly, of course Putin **can** be stopped. If NATO is forced to attack Russia, that’s the end of Putin. But of course there is not way they would risk a total war over this. That’s a very different reality from the “there is no military capability” picture you’re drawing ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/220 "2014-03-02T16:46:44Z")
> [@](#): > > (-NotfooledbyW 03-02-2014 09:33 AM) Originally Posted by Ravenman (Post 17154979) But the point still stands either way, since terrorism is a greater threat to the US than Russia or Mitt Romney, so I’m still correct no matter how you slice it! \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > “Cite” Originally Posted by adaher (Post 17155037) That would depend on whether PUtin considers former Soviet Republics to be in the Russian sphere of influence even if they are NATO members. Remember, an attack on a NATO member is an attack on the United States. \<“Cite” > > Ukraine is not a member of NATO. What on earth could be your point? > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW (Post 17155088) Ukraine is not a member of NATO. What on earth could be your point? \<“Cite” > > > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > > > (-Kolak of Twilo 03-02-2014 10:57 AM) I’m guessing here, but I would assume our friend adaher’s thinking is that if Putin sees Ukraine as being in the Russian sphere of influence because it is a former Soviet Republic does he view Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania the same way? After all, those three are member’s of NATO. > > > > > > > > Like I said, I’m just guessing but if that is what was meant I have to admit it is a valid question. I could be a valid question but not in context of the current situation in Ukraine. And it definitely makes no sense as an attempt at a response to Ravenman’s original question. Even if this were somehow a verifiable condition that “PUtin considers former Soviet Republics to be in the Russian sphere of influence even if they are NATO members” he still needs a pretext to invade and then invade staring NATO in the eye at which time I still don’t see that a half dozen ‘if’ scenarios based upon what might be or might not be on Putin’s mind… can be a bigger threat to our immediate national security than al Qaeda and the global terrorist threat to our national security. Romney is a national security buffoon and it is Sarah Palin and a few others like that who keep him from holding the number spot in that category. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=12)