# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 111
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2201 "2014-04-02T17:11:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, wrote a whole post on this that just got ate by the board. _sigh_ To sum up, you are making the same argument Red has tried to make throughout this thread. That somehow Russia is justified in what they are doing because NATO/Western Europe/America has deliberately set about to encircle them with foes and ‘bristling with missiles aimed at the heart of their country’. This, of course, ignores the fact that the reason those countries (former Soviet puppets and provinces) have been eager to join NATO was because of the fact that they were kept in the Soviet sphere of influence by the force of the old Soviet Union and it’s military. Yes, the Russians are paranoid about being surrounded by foes. But it’s no justification for them to force those former nations or republics back into the fold so they feel better. What should NATO/Western Europe have done with, say, Poland? Turned them away because taking them in would make Russia feel bad?? > > And then there is a deeper look at this paranoia that Russia has. To me, it’s similar to the paranoia that Iran supposedly has that makes them need to have nuclear weapons to hold off the big, bad US. The Soviet Union fell in 1991. During that time, no attempt has been made to conquer, invade or otherwise attack a (very weak militarily as well as economically) Russia. Instead, the West has reached out to try and trade with the Russians. In fact, I think that the West would LOVE it if the Russians would start acting and playing nicer with them and their neighbors, and fully join the world community as a full on partner. There is zero initiative in Europe, let alone the US to attack Russia. So, their paranoia about being surrounded by foes is just that…it’s paranoia without a real, rational basis in fact. > > It’s actions however like what they are trying to pull in the Crimean and the Ukraine, as well as games they are playing in other former republics that makes the west nervous and basically get Western European (and US of course) paranoia going. You wholly ignore what happened in South Ossetia in 2008 where the West was the aggressor whether the handlers and friends of Sakaashvilli wanted him to be so stupid or not to launch a military assault of such magnitude that forced the Russian severe response. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2202 "2014-04-02T17:17:13Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You wholly ignore what happened in South Ossetia in 2008 where the West was the aggressor whether the handlers and friends of Sakaashvilli wanted him to be so stupid or not to launcher a military assault of such magnitude that forced the Russian severe response. Please, explain how “the West”, as opposed to Georgia or South Ossetian separatists, was the aggressor in the Russo-Georgian War. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2203 "2014-04-02T17:28:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You wholly ignore what happened in South Ossetia in 2008 where the West was the aggressor whether the handlers and friends of Sakaashvilli wanted him to be so stupid or not to launch a military assault of such magnitude that forced the Russian severe response. The West was the aggressor? What do you base that on? > [@](#): > > Quote where you see that? I’ll let Captain Amazing answer for himself, but a quick skim shows this: > [@](#): > > Here are the main findings under IHL and HRL: > > Allegations of genocide against Ossetia > ns are not substantiated by evidence. > > There is serious and concurring evidence to > indicate that ethnic cleansing has been > committed against ethnic Georgians in South > Ossetia, through forced displacement and > the destruction of property. > > Violations of IHL and HRL were committed > by Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia. Very > few examples of violations by Abkhaz forces were documented during the conflict or in > its aftermath. > > While the August 2008 conflict lasted only five > days, numerous violations of IHL were > committed during this period by Geor > gia, Russia and South Ossetia. > > Very serious violations of IHL and HRL > were committed by South Ossetian forces, armed > groups and individuals after the cease-fire. > > Violations mainly concern IHL on the conduc > t of hostilities, treatment of persons and > property and forced displacement. > > More specifically, violations include indisc > riminate attacks and a lack of precautions by > Georgia and Russia; a widespread campaign > of looting and burning of ethnic Georgian > villages by South Ossetia, as well as ill trea > tment, beating, hostage-taking and arbitrary > arrests; and the failure by Russia to prevent or stop violations by South Ossetian forces > and armed groups and individuals, after the cease-fire, in the buffer zone and in South > Ossetia. Sorry for the formatting weirdness…cutting and pasting from that PDF wasn’t working well. At any rate, It’s pages 430-434ish. Not sure if that’s what CA was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2204 "2014-04-02T17:28:54Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Yes, that is a good point that should not be ignored. > > But it’s also the same argument that (in part) allowed Russia to take control of eastern Europe after World War II. The whole “poor Russia suffered so much during the war” and “they’ve been attacked by Germany twice in 30 years, they need a buffer zone” has been used before. And it has been exploited from Moscow. And the consequences were disastrous. > > The simple fact is that no NATO member will be crazy enough to invade Russia. From a national security point of view, Russia should probably be more worried about China than about anyone in NATO. Sakaashvilli attacked Russian troops in 2008 as they were on the path to NATO membership. NATO lowered their standards quite low to allow Georgia and Ukraine get as close as they got to joining NATO as they did in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2205 "2014-04-02T17:31:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Quote where you see that? While you seem to be using the report as proof that Georgia was in the wrong, a close reading blames Russia for much of the violence too: > [@](#): > > By any reasonable definition, the sum of actions undertaken by Russia by mid-2008 amounted to a threat of force vis-à-vis Georgia. For Tbilisi, both official statements by Moscow and the military operations it authorised on the border and within Georgian territory generated a definite sense that, within the context of earlier experiences and of the latest developments, Georgia ran a substantial risk of Russian military intervention. > [@](#): > > Based on the foregoing, all parties to the Georgian conflict share responsibility for crisis escalation. > [@](#): > > Both Georgia and Russia violated the prohibition of threats of force under Art. 2(4) of the UN Charter. The > [@](#): > > Georgian attacks against the Russian peacekeepers’ base would equal an attack on an ordinary Russian base in foreign territory, and were therefore specifically addressed against Russia as a state, but this does not constitute a sufficient condition for self-defence. > [@](#): > > The expulsion of the Georgian forces from South Ossetia, and the defence of > South Ossetia as a whole was not a legitimate objective for Russia, > [@](#): > > Russian military action taken as a whole was therefore neither necessary nor proportionate to protect Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. > [@](#): > > Russian military activities against the Georgian military forces were not justified as collective self-defence under international law. You happy now? Will you finally stop using Iraq as an excuse for Russian actions in Crimea? Will you finally stop justifying Russian actions in Georgia just because the initial aggression was carried out by Georgian troops? I bet not… EDIT: Just seen that **XT** did a similar job. I’m not sure why we bother to be honest ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2206 "2014-04-02T17:33:44Z")
Russia wants free reign over the former non-Russian USSR region, and as much of the former Warsaw Pact as they can get. They know NATO isn’t going to initiate an attack on Russia proper. What they’re afraid of is not being able to project force into non-Russian areas. Well, tough _latkes_ if they can’t. Had they been a better neighbor in the past, those countries wouldn’t be so deathly afraid of them. If I were living in one of them, I’d want to distance our country from Russia as much as possible. And the idea that there are Russians living in other countries is a smoke screen. The “Russian Speakers” in Ukraine are Ukrainian, not Russian. If Russia has expats living in Ukraine that it is worried about, then Russia can recall them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2207 "2014-04-02T17:42:12Z")
[QUOTE=Batistuta] EDIT: Just seen that XT did a similar job. I’m not sure why we bother to be honest [/QUOTE] The idea is to fight ignorance and have a discussion. We aren’t really trying to fight NFBW’s ignorance. He’s set in his mind and there is no real debate with him. Even leaving his odd view point and posting style and weird fixations, there just isn’t anything to debate with him. However, there are a lot of lurkers who are watching and reading the discussion. Some of them don’t know what’s going on, or are on the fence…or just don’t know anything about the situation at all but are interested enough to slog through pages and pages of drak to find a few nuggets. That’s the target audience for your replies. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2208 "2014-04-02T17:44:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Sakaashvilli attacked Russian troops in 2008 as they were on the path to NATO membership. NATO lowered their standards quite low to allow Georgia and Ukraine get as close as they got to joining NATO as they did in 2008. “As close as they got” was [not even starting yet](http://www.eurasianet.org/node/66914) on the multi-year, extensive process that is the Membership Action Plan. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2209 "2014-04-02T17:49:15Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The idea is to fight ignorance and have a discussion. We aren’t really trying to fight NFBW’s ignorance. He’s set in his mind and there is no real debate with him. Even leaving his odd view point and posting style and weird fixations, there just isn’t anything to debate with him. However, there are a lot of lurkers who are watching and reading the discussion. Some of them don’t know what’s going on, or are on the fence…or just don’t know anything about the situation at all but are interested enough to slog through pages and pages of drak to find a few nuggets. That’s the target audience for your replies. 🙂 Fair enough, I guess it’s all worth it then 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2210 "2014-04-02T17:58:45Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > While you seem to be using the report as proof that Georgia was in the wrong, a close reading blames Russia for much of the violence too: > > You happy now? Will you finally stop using Iraq as an excuse for Russian actions in Crimea? Will you finally stop justifying Russian actions in Georgia just because the initial aggression was carried out by Georgian troops? I bet not… > > EDIT: Just seen that **XT** did a similar job. I’m not sure why we bother to be honest When an EU commissioned report establishes (had to admit) the ‘fact’ that Georgia launched the attack prior to any start of a Russian invasion, then it is obvious to any objective and unbiased observer that Russia had an inherent right to self defense plus it became Russia’s perogative to retaliate in whatever way they chose. Russis chose to destroy much of Georgia’s military assets as possibke. Any nation would have done the same. Are you saying Russia was not justified to respond because an opinion paid for by the EU thinks they went too far. If you do you undermine the current argument that Russis has nothing to fear from NATO expansion because of EU bias that Russua had really no justification to protect their troops from attack by some hot headed fool who managed to be able to order an attack as Sakaashvilli did. From a Russian perspective the entire West and EU are mad. When Georgia attacked Russian troops first they deserved to suffer the consequences of being obliterated in response. And The EU Report could not lie and say that Russia invaded Georgis first. That is all we needed to know. Russua has plenty of Reasons to fear NATO expansion because it entertains countries with nuts as leaders to be members. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2211 "2014-04-02T18:03:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you saying Russia was not justified to respond because an opinion paid for by the EU thinks they went too far. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The EU spent $15 million dollars to find this truth. It is the truth. Oh dear. Just a few weeks between one post and the other.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2212 "2014-04-02T22:04:02Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Oh dear. Just a few weeks between one post and the other.:rolleyes: It is the truth that Georgia attacked first. That is the significance of the EU Commission’s finding. They could not perpetuate the West’s year long lie about which side started it. I don’t believe the EU Commission was base up of un-biased imiartual objective experts who could determine fairly what the Russian response should have been to a deadly attack on Russian troops. The truth is that Russia responded to an attack on its military personel. If we want an opinion of how far the Russian response should have gone, there needs to be a Russian oersowctive on that. My view is that Russia had an inherent right to self-defense and it was up to them, once one Russian soldier or civilian was killed by Georgian cowards that fired those rockets at civilian targets, to react in a defensive and punitive strike. If you think that Russia was obliged to take out only the artillery and tanks that were killing innocent civilians and turned around and gone home, it is a very good indication that Russia can never be right about anythin? With so many in the west thinking like that its no wonder Russia does what it does. Your expectation that Russia should have limited its response to a murderous attack by a wanna-be-NATO member, so as to please an EU Commission is absurd. The truth is that Georgia started it and lied after they got their ass kicked and that fact was confirmed by the EU in its investigation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2213 "2014-04-02T22:15:19Z")
Have you found the door, a stone and a rose yet? Choo-choo…choo-choo…choo-choo…and that is the truth. Keep on chugging, NFBW. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2214 "2014-04-02T22:36:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Have you found the door, a stone and a rose yet? Choo-choo…choo-choo…choo-choo…and that is the truth. Keep on chugging, NFBW. 😃 😃 😃 I love it. My favorite part of the Dark Tower series is that “essay”. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2215 "2014-04-02T22:50:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Have you found the door, a stone and a rose yet? Choo-choo…choo-choo…choo-choo…and that is the truth. Keep on chugging, NFBW. So the record is clear - it is ok for the US to attack another nation - topple its government when there was no threat or hostile act being committed by the regime at the time of the invasion. But for Russia to respond to a hostile attack on its military forces and the civilians they were there to protect, is required to have acted with restraint and extremely limited defensive military response and respect for the aggressor nation’s soverign integrity and right to murder people at will. I see. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2216 "2014-04-02T23:47:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So the record is clear - it is ok for the US to attack another nation - topple its government when there was no threat or hostile act being committed by the regime at the time of the invasion. But for Russia to respond to a hostile attack on its military forces and the civilians they were there to protect, is required to have acted with restraint and extremely limited defensive military response and respect for the aggressor nation’s soverign integrity and right to murder people at will. I see. Yes, that’s exactly what he said. You’re sure you’re not a fan of Said El-Saahaaf? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2217 "2014-04-03T00:07:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, that’s exactly what he said. Who said? I am talking about the commissioners hired by the EU that found Russia to have responded to an attack by Georgia but went too far in the five day defensive and retaliatory response. Compared to other invasions Russia’s response was indeed quite restrained. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2218 "2014-04-03T00:22:08Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Who said? I am talking about the commissioners hired by the EU that found Russia to have responded to an attack by Georgia but went too far in the five day defensive and retaliatory response. > > Compared to other invasions Russia’s response was indeed quite restrained. So basically the part of the report you agree with documents the “TRUTH” and the rest is Western propaganda bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2219 "2014-04-03T00:32:48Z")
[Regrets, Viktor Yanukovych has them:](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/04/02/former_ukrainian_president_viktor_yanukovych_regrets_inviting_russian_troops.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2220 "2014-04-03T01:09:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So basically the part of the report you agree with documents the “TRUTH” and the rest is Western propaganda bullshit. No. That is a pathetic interpretation of what I’ve said. Georgia insisted all along that Russia began to invaded and Georgia reacted. Having the EU find that Georgia lied about that critical point is signifucant and confirms Russia’s original version of what happened. Beyond that fact, the rest is opinion. And it is not fair and balanced opinion because Russia is not represented in the Commussion for its opinion. But the truth could not be disguised in a EU commissioned report about who attacked first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=110) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=112)