# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 119
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2361 "2014-04-07T21:34:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**One Word Defines U.S. Foreign Policy: Hubris**](http://contraryperspective.com/2014/04/05/one-word-defines-u-s-foreign-policy-hubris/) > > – This latter part is rather obvious. Nothing lasts forever. What does any of this have to do with what Russia is doing in the Crimea and in the Ukraine? What does any of this have to do with how the West will respond to what Russia is doing? I’m mystified why you think this is relevant to the discussion…and more-so why this seeming constant attempt to hijack the thread into a discussion about the US is allowed to continue. Could you at least just explain why you think it’s relevant? What connection you see between past US actions, waning US power and general US evilness and what Russia is doing in the Crimea, their troops massed on the borders of the Ukraine, and [possible evidence](http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/07/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) that Russia isn’t done yet? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2362 "2014-04-07T22:51:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What does any of this have to do with what Russia is doing in the Crimea and in the Ukraine? What does any of this have to do with how the West will respond to what Russia is doing? I’m mystified why you think this is relevant to the discussion…and more-so why this seeming constant attempt to hijack the thread into a discussion about the US is allowed to continue. Could you at least just explain why you think it’s relevant? What connection you see between past US actions, waning US power and general US evilness and what Russia is doing in the Crimea, their troops massed on the borders of the Ukraine, and [possible evidence](http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/07/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) that Russia isn’t done yet? 'Mystified" is good. Means you are thinking. You can figure out the rest, smart as you are. Is it OK if I laugh at my own jokes? Best take the red, white & blue blinders first. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2363 "2014-04-07T23:43:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > 'Mystified" is good. Means you are thinking. You can figure out the rest, smart as you are. > > Is it OK if I laugh at my own jokes? > > Best take the red, white & blue blinders first. You’re going to have to work a lot harder to be funny if you want anyone else to join in. Start by trying to be relevant. Your drive-by didn’t have anything to do with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2364 "2014-04-08T00:23:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And to your point about a “taste” being worse than none at all, holding (rigged) elections can give authoritarian regimes a veneer of legitimacy, that they wouldn’t otherwise possess. The Crimean regime that held the referendum was not an authoritarian regime. They were a separatist movement - a revolt. You might call it a popular uprising. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2365 "2014-04-08T00:24:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Rarely do we stop to think that some problems simply can’t be solved with massive infusions of money and troops. I think that if you read the Washington Post in the months and weeks before US interventions, you will just about always find such stopping and thinking. More often, there is plenty of stopping and thinking delay. But while the stopping and thinking goes on, great powers make one-step-at-a-time moves it is dreadfully hard to take back. > [@RedFury](#): > > Best take the red, white & blue blinders first. Well, then the somewhat mystifying quotation I think you might ponder is this famous (albeit the translation is disputed) one from definite non-American Leon Trotsky: [You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.](http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/no-war-russia-dont-be-so-sure-10177?page=show) If Putin, and the people behind him, want to reverse what they see as the greatest tragedy of their lives – the breakup of the Soviet empire – we are in for a bad time – even though no one thinks the problem of Russia can be solved by said massive infusions. Crimea wasn’t so serious for people outside Ukraine. But if it was just the first of numerous slices Russia wants back, it’s going to be very hard to avoid making threats. Even relative doves will want them, because they will be designed as alternatives to military action. And if the threats don’t work, well, then war starts being interested in all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2366 "2014-04-08T00:52:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The Crimean regime that held the referendum was not an authoritarian regime. They were a separatist movement - a revolt. You might call it a popular uprising. As I asked you before - how do we know that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2367 "2014-04-08T01:49:55Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The Crimean regime that held the referendum was not an authoritarian regime. They were a separatist movement - a revolt. You might call it a popular uprising. True, I suppose, because establishing an authoritarian regime takes time. But not all that much; I daresay they’ve got one by now, to whatever extent Russia has got one, and maybe a bit more because of immediate and local circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2368 "2014-04-08T03:27:35Z")
On 04-04-2014 at 09:52 AM \*\*Human Action \*\*in response to me wrote: > [@](#): > > In any case, what was originally disputed by you was one line in an opinon piece: > > > [@](#): > > > > The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin. > > Nothing you’ve written since then has shown that to be untrue. On 04-04-2014 at 05:53 PM \*\*I wrote \*\*in response to that: > [@](#): > > It is dishonest and wrong to declare that the Russian people favored an ‘invasion’ of Georgia. I’m sure Russians heartily on the whole fully endorsed the defensive and punitive military strike into and against the Sakaashvilli government’s ‘massive’ artillery and tank assault on civilian targets in Tskhinvali on the night of August 7, 2008. > > That opinion piece has nothing to support its accusation that the Russian public at large would support Medvedev launching an invasion of Georgia without it being a defensive action as well as intended to destroy the military capability that was offensively used to kill Russian Federation soldiers in a cowardly unjustified, illegal attack that Georgia clearly started the five day war. > > You can defend the dishonest misrepresentation of the Russian population as a whole in that opinion. I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid that biased writer is peddling. On 04-04-2014 at 07:01 PM \*\*Human Action wrote \*\*in response: > [@](#): > > 😕 Are you thinking of the right article? This one made no accusation that the Russian public would support some alternate-reality invasion of Georgia that occurred under different circumstances. That the Russian people approved of the actual invasion of Georgia, at least in the form of increasing their approval of Medvedev, well, that’s just a fact. On 04-04-2014 at 11:13 PM Human Action tells me I miss the point and I’ve set up a strawman: > [@](#): > > Unsurprisingly, you have completely missed the point of the portion of the article you are criticizing. It is in no way a criticism of the Russian public, or even Putin. Rather, it is the observation that previous military action worked to Putin (and his crony Medvedev)'s benefit, coupled with a prediction that this one would not, and a discussion of why that would be the case (that is, the difference between then and now). Your critiques are directed at a strawman. Then on 04-05-2014 at 03:31 AM I wrote and posted this: > [@](#): > > And then three days later on 03-31-2014 at 05:53 PM \*\*XT posts a CNN opinion that falsely claims that Russia 'STARTED" three wars in the past “to solve domestic problems” \*\*and then brings up the “HITLER” refrain against the ‘war-starting’ Putin. > > > [@](#): > > > > I thought I’d post this opinion piece from CNN here, since it’s again another interesting (to me) view point on an aspect that has been handwaved away by both those who support Russia’s viewpoint and those who just seem to want to bash Obama/US/Western Europe for the supposed tepid and silly/ridiculous sanctions: > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Starting a war to solve a domestic problem is now a Russian tradition. The first and second Chechen wars had political motives. Both were intended to distract attention from the consequences of privatization and the second brought Putin to power. The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin. > > > > > > The earlier acts of aggression, however, did not evoke a strong international response. This time, Russia faces full scale war if it invades eastern Ukraine and, at the very least, sanctions if it does not withdraw from Crimea. It is ill equipped to handle either of these challenges. > > > > > > Putin has used rhetoric reminiscent of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s, insisting in his speech on March 18 that “Russia was not simply robbed, it was plundered” and denouncing “national traitors.” The regime he heads, however, is tied to the West inextricably. So Human Action tells me that what XT posted from CNN,\* “made no accusation that the Russian public would support some alternate-reality invasion of Georgia that occurred under different circumstances.”\* Human Action is in error. That CNN writer stated his \*alternate-reality \*belief that Russia started the 2008 war to solve a domestic problem. He made no mention to the TRUTH that Russia did not start that war and that it was ‘defensive’ in nature, not a war of aggression started to solve a domestic problem. And how does Human Action know that it was the invasion (phase II) per the EU Commission report that made Medvedev popular. An attack on a nation’s soldiers promotes nationalistic support for its leaders. I pointed out that it was the attack by Al Qaeda had made Bush instantly popular. not the follow up invasion of Afghanistan. Similar would be the case in Russia just like every other nation that has sons and daughters in the military, the people will support their leadership every and any time a nation’s soldiers are attacked and killed. So it is wholly bogus propaganda expressed on CNN that Russia \*\*STARTED the Five Day War \*\*in Georgia to solve a domestic problem. That is absurd since it has been a few years since the truth came out and it was according to a report the EU commissioned. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2369 "2014-04-08T03:35:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > True, I suppose, because establishing an authoritarian regime takes time. > > But not all that much; I daresay they’ve got one by now, to whatever extent Russia has got one, and maybe a bit more because of immediate and local circumstances. I don’t see how the Crimean state government is authoritarian or will become authoritarian because I have little doubt that it has majority Pro-Russia support to begin with. And I wouldn’t dismiss what the Tartars end up supporting. Putin is pressing every button to appeal to them… not crush or be hostile to them. Ukraine was not that good to them when they had the chance. I’ve read from Russian News that 8000 Ukrainian troops that were stationed in Crimea have applied for Russian passports. About 4000 freely left for Ukraine. I’m not posting that as a fact as of yet… the only sources are Russian News. But it will be interesting to find out what those numbers are. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2370 "2014-04-08T03:43:51Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I don’t see how the Crimean state government is authoritarian or will become authoritarian because I have little doubt that it has majority Pro-Russia support to begin with. That’s a good point, because Russians have never in their history had an authoritarian state. Not earlier and not now. Models of liberal democracy, them. > [@](#): > > I’ve read from Russian News… You seem to forget that most of us are not fooled by Russian propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2371 "2014-04-08T03:53:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The Crimean regime that held the referendum was not an authoritarian regime. They were a separatist movement - a revolt. You might call it a popular uprising. Well, I might be willing to call it that, except for all the Russian soldiers and such. See, popular uprisings that have a strong, outside power blockading the ports and military bases of the country that the purported ‘popular uprising’ and have troops in the streets during important (and illegal) votes (that have ridiculous landslides like 98% in favor) sort of set off my own bullshit detector. Obviously your own is calibrated a lot differently, though, and to you it’s on par with the ‘thugs’ who tossed out the old Ukrainian president, despite the key difference that there was no outside troops backing them up and it actually was a completely internal affair. [QUOTE=RedFury] 'Mystified" is good. Means you are thinking. You can figure out the rest, smart as you are. Is it OK if I laugh at my own jokes? Best take the red, white & blue blinders first. [/QUOTE] So, a completely worthless non-answer is all you gots? Ok then…thanks for playing. Learns me for asking you and expecting…well, anything. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2372 "2014-04-08T04:00:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So Human Action tells me that what XT posted from CNN,\* “made no accusation that the Russian public would support some alternate-reality invasion of Georgia that occurred under different circumstances.”\* That remains true, and you don’t even attempt to prove otherwise in your rant below. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Human Action is in error. That CNN writer stated his \*alternate-reality \*belief that Russia started the 2008 war to solve a domestic problem. He made no mention to the TRUTH that Russia did not start that war and that it was ‘defensive’ in nature, not a war of aggression started to solve a domestic problem. There’s more than one way to start a war. There’s firing the first shot, and then there’s doing everything you can to get the other guy to fire the first shot. In any event, I read that piece as **XT** did above, as treating the Georgian war differently from the Chechen wars. > [@NotfooledbW](#): > > And how does Human Action know that it was the invasion (phase II) per the EU Commission report that made Medvedev popular. An attack on a nation’s soldiers promotes nationalistic support for its leaders. > > I pointed out that it was the attack by Al Qaeda had made Bush instantly popular. not the follow up invasion of Afghanistan. Well, I cited an article that supports that interpretation: > [@](#): > > Still, there were unmistakable signs that Mr. Medvedev was being cut down to size, starting on the fourth anniversary of the August 2008 war with Georgia. That event had lifted his popularity greatly, and each anniversary he reminisced on television about the tough, solitary decision he made to send the army into Georgia while Mr. Putin was away in Beijing. It might not be as persuasive as the nothing you’ve cited to the contrary, but still. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Similar would be the case in Russia just like every other nation that has sons and daughters in the military, the people will support their leadership every and any time a nation’s soldiers are attacked and killed. > > So it is wholly bogus propaganda expressed on CNN that Russia \*\*STARTED the Five Day War \*\*in Georgia to solve a domestic problem. That is absurd since it has been a few years since the truth came out and it was according to a report the EU commissioned. See above. By the way, you know that Russians weren’t the target of the Georgian attack, right? That it was South Ossetian militia, who’d been shelling and bombing Georgia? Which Russian peacekeepers didn’t stop, instead bringing in their own heavy weapons and overflying Georgian airspace with combat aircraft? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2373 "2014-04-08T04:05:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a good point, because Russians have never in their history had an authoritarian state. Not earlier and not now. Models of liberal democracy, them. > You seem to forget that most of us are not fooled by Russian propaganda. What sort of person thinks ‘reading Russian news’ is being fooled by Russian Propaganda? I’d say its one who can’t find an argument based upon some facts and understanding of things. Nice bit of snippeteering there you’ve done. I qualified my comment on Ukrainian troops from Crimea voluntarily joining the Russian Army. I’ll let you know when the Western Media confirms or denies that. Do you have any evidence that Crimea’s government is run by an authoritarian figure or regime? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2374 "2014-04-08T04:11:50Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Do you have any evidence that Crimea’s government is run by an authoritarian figure or regime? [/QUOTE] I think what they are all getting at is that PUTIN is the ‘authoritarian figure’ and RUSSIA is the ‘government’ being so run…since you seem to have trouble understanding what people write in these threads. You may not (almost certainly don’t) agree with them, but it would help if you at least could understand what they are saying or getting at. Case in point is that CNN opinion piece you keep harping on. You have built pages and pages of bullshit all centered on one single line in that article…and one that you are basically misreading and conflating. Good grief, man, even if you weren’t reading it wrong it was one freaking line in AN OPINION PIECE…only you could turn that into page after page of spin and horseshit. Move on already to something else…please. Gods, I wish I had never posted the thing since it’s detracted so much from whatever debate is to be had in this ridiculous thread by providing you a free form hijack about Georgia (which isn’t the topic of debate) for literally pages and pages. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2375 "2014-04-08T05:10:59Z")
On 04-03-2014 at 09:35 PM I wrote: > [@](#): > > The EU exposed the truth that corroborates the Russian immediate timeline of events: > > > [@](#): > > > > “On the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, a sustained Georgian artillery attack struck the town of Tskhinvali. Other movements of the Georgian armed forces targeting Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas were under way, and soon the fighting involved Russian, South Ossetian and Abkhaz military units and armed elements.” On 04-03-2014 at 10:58 PM Human Action responded to my 09:35 PM post: > [@](#): > > No one has disputed that. On 04-07-2014 at 11:27 PM I wrote: > [@](#): > > So Human Action tells me that what XT posted from CNN, “made no accusation that the Russian public would support some alternate-reality invasion of Georgia that occurred under different circumstances.” > > Human Action is in error. That CNN writer stated his alternate-reality belief that Russia started the 2008 war to solve a domestic problem. He made no mention to the TRUTH that Russia did not start that war and that it was ‘defensive’ in nature, not a war of aggression started to solve a domestic problem. On 04-08-2014 at 12:00 AM Human Action reverts to his ‘blame the victim’ mode: There’s more than one way to start a war. There’s firing the first shot, and then there’s doing everything you can to get the other guy to fire the first shot. But nevertheless, Human Action’s ‘blame the victim’ tactic is in error too: On 04-02-2014 at 01:31 PM \*\*Batistuta Posted this cite \*\*from the EU Commission Report: > [@](#): > > Based on the foregoing, all parties to the Georgian conflict share responsibility for crisis escalation. It may be that Human Action has a better investigation to the START of the FIVE DAY WAR than the EU Commission. But we have not seen it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2376 "2014-04-08T05:36:53Z")
A big part of the debate on Ukraine/Russia is the reputation the Western media and talking heads successfully apply to demonize Russia. The 2008 war with Georgia is a big part of the false and dishonest demonization of Russia and Putin that needs to be heard and added to the substance of the current debate involving Russia. It is not true that Russia has a tradition of starting wars to cover up domestic problems. It is not true that Medvedev became popular because Russia\*\* invaded \*\*Georgia. Medvedev became popular for DEFENDING Russian soldiers who were being killed by a Georgian illegal and massive artillery and tank attack. Even If one believes that Russia ‘baited’ Georgia to fire the first shot …Then … Georgia fired the first shots that killed Russian soldiers, and the Russian people of course would patriotically respond with approve and support their president who fired back and put a stop to Russian soldiers being killed under a massive illegal unjustified artillery barrage from a cocky wanna-be NATO member heavily armed by Western nations. To claim the Russians have a \*\*‘TRADITION’ now of STARTING WARS \*\*to cover up domestic problems is a bogus accusation and needs to be put down. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2377 "2014-04-08T08:13:31Z")
[The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/) - I fully understand the need to intervene from the folks who think Ukraine is in central USA. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2378 "2014-04-08T08:35:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > [The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/) > > - I fully understand the need to intervene from the folks who think Ukraine is in central USA. That’s hilarious. I’m particularly amazed by the people who located Ukraine somewhere around Hawaii 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2379 "2014-04-08T12:09:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 04-03-2014 at 09:35 PM I wrote: > > On 04-03-2014 at 10:58 PM Human Action responded to my 09:35 PM post: > > On 04-07-2014 at 11:27 PM I wrote: > > On 04-08-2014 at 12:00 AM Human Action reverts to his ‘blame the victim’ mode: There’s more than one way to start a war. There’s firing the first shot, and then there’s doing everything you can to get the other guy to fire the first shot. > But nevertheless, Human Action’s ‘blame the victim’ tactic is in error too: > > On 04-02-2014 at 01:31 PM \*\*Batistuta Posted this cite \*\*from the EU Commission Report: > It may be that Human Action has a better investigation to the START of the FIVE DAY WAR than the EU Commission. But we have not seen it. All I can tell you is to read the report, instead of telling me what my position is. The escalation that lead up to the attack is clearly documented. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2380 "2014-04-08T12:26:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, there is no difference. Sending the army into a hostile foreign nation is [an invasion.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/invasion?s=t) > > Perhaps the issue is some kind of a negative connotation you associate with the word “invasion”? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > He probably thinks that a country can’t “invade” another country as an act of self-defense. Or, he’s redefining common English words again in order to defend his indefensible statements. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It is not true that Medvedev became popular because Russia\*\* invaded \*\*Georgia. Medvedev became popular for DEFENDING Russian soldiers who were being killed by a Georgian illegal and massive artillery and tank attack. A distinction that only you are making, even though you claim you are not making that distinction. > [@John Mace](#): > > Sending an army into a country isn’t an invasion? Well, what do you know!! > [@NFBW](#): > > Are you suggesting that I have made such a claim? If you are you are wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=118) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=120)