# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 120
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2381 "2014-04-08T13:13:00Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > That’s hilarious. I’m particularly amazed by the people who located Ukraine somewhere around Hawaii 😃 I think you are mistaking an island for a guess “dot”. But everyone knows Ukraine is in Greenland. Or Australia. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2382 "2014-04-08T16:48:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > All I can tell you is to read the report, instead of telling me what my position is. The escalation that lead up to the attack is clearly documented. Yes I cited the part where they said both sides were to blame for the escalation that led to the outbreak of war. Therefore if the EU commissioned report is what you base all claims that Russia alone escalated the events that led to war you are in error. (A) The first fact is that Russia did not start the five day war in 2008, so there is no way XT’s CNN dude could be right. (B) The second fact is that XT’s CNN dude used a word that included the 2008 war with the Chechyen wars as far as Russia starting them in order to resolve domestic problems. That word is ‘tradition’. He said there now is a Russian ‘tradition’ of starting wars for that domestic political purpose. (C) The third fact is that there is no way to state that the people of Russia responded with a bump of approval of Medvedev in August 2008 because he ordered an invasion of Georgia beyond what was necessary and justified to stop the Georgian massive attack. His approval would normally get a bump just for the fact that Russuan soldiers were being attacked and killed and wounded. (D) Another fact is that the NY Times you cite did not refer to what made Medvedev popular in 2008 as the Russian invasion of Georgia. They correctly referred to the entire ‘event’ which is inclusive of the fact that Russia was attacked and Russia justifiably responded in self-defense by invading Georgia. The NY Times did not express any biased judgement that there is a ‘tradition’ of starting wars by Russian leaderd to cover up domestic problems. On 04-02-2014 at 01:31 PM Batistuta Posted this cite from the EU Commission Report: “Based on the foregoing, all parties to the Georgian conflict share responsibility for crisis escalation.” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2383 "2014-04-08T18:25:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Yes I cited the part where they said both sides were to blame for the escalation that led to the outbreak of war. Yet you have not incorporated that information into your argument. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Therefore if the EU commissioned report is what you base all claims that Russia alone escalated the events that led to war you are in error. :smack: Not only have I not said that Russia alone bore responsibility, I’ve explicitly said the opposite of that: > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Russia was due for a share of the blame. Seriously, pal, when you attempt to address other posters’ argument, you are wrong about what they are saying about 90% of the time. It’s a real problem. Maybe re-read previous posts before replying? Maybe assume the most moderate interpretation, instead of the most extreme? Try something different, please. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > (A) The first fact is that Russia did not start the five day war in 2008, so there is no way XT’s CNN dude could be right. Again, there’s more than one way to start a war. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > (B) The second fact is that XT’s CNN dude used a word that included the 2008 war with the Chechyen wars as far as Russia starting them in order to resolve domestic problems. That word is ‘tradition’. He said there now is a Russian ‘tradition’ of starting wars for that domestic political purpose. Put it this way: if Russian leaders were interested in an armed conflict to goose their popularity, but didn’t want to fire the first shot, their best bet would be to behave exactly as they did with regard to Georgia, to try and provoke an attack that would kill or wound their troops in the crossfire; said troops thus serving nicely as a tripwire. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > (C) The third fact is that there is no way to state that the people of Russia responded with a bump of approval of Medvedev in August 2008 because he ordered an invasion of Georgia beyond what was necessary and justified to stop the Georgian massive attack. His approval would normally get a bump just for the fact that Russuan soldiers were being attacked and killed and wounded. > > (D) Another fact is that the NY Times you cite did not refer to what made Medvedev popular in 2008 as the Russian invasion of Georgia. They correctly referred to the entire ‘event’ which is inclusive of the fact that Russia was attacked and Russia justifiably responded in self-defense by invading Georgia. The NY Times did not express any biased judgement that there is a ‘tradition’ of starting wars by Russian leaderd to cover up domestic problems. It said: > [@](#): > > Still, there were unmistakable signs that Mr. Medvedev was being cut down to size, starting on the fourth anniversary of the August 2008 war with Georgia. That event had lifted his popularity greatly, and each anniversary he reminisced on television about the tough, solitary decision he made **to send the army into Georgia** while Mr. Putin was away in Beijing. And that EU report quote you’ve bandied about repeatedly without explanation was: > [@](#): > > When considering the legality of Russian military force against Georgia, the answer needs to be differentiated. The Russian reaction to the Georgian attack can be divided into two phases: first, the immediate reaction in order to defend Russian peacekeepers, and second, **the invasion of Georgia by Russian armed forces** reaching far beyond the administrative boundary of South Ossetia. All bolding mine. So, per that article, it was the invasion, not the immediate reaction to defend the peacekeeping troops, that Medvedev reminisced on television about every year. So, it at least seems to Medvedev that it was the invasion that made him beloved. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 04-02-2014 at 01:31 PM Batistuta Posted this cite from the EU Commission Report: “Based on the foregoing, all parties to the Georgian conflict share responsibility for crisis escalation.” _That’s what I’m saying_, except you are unable or unwilling to understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2384 "2014-04-08T18:55:38Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I heard around 8,000 people in the Donetsk rally. Which is rather much for a population which has otherwise completely lost all trust in the political system. I wonder how many were from Russia? Anyway, I think events in the last few years have clearly shown that protests grow with discontent. This protest is aggressive, but puny. > [@Rune](#): > > Reportedly troops from other parts of Ukraine is being moved to the restive regions because the local forces are not following orders. National Guard and special forces. If true then it will not end well. Has the protest grown yet or is it just more violent? > [@Rune](#): > > Is this the Dagger in The Back theory? How does the belief that Germany lost WWI because of citizens of various ethnic groups and political ideologies have anything to do with what I said? > [@Rune](#): > > I have no idea how the whole mess can be put back together again, or actually I’m back to my original opinion of many years, that Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia should be handled as a block by the EU and aggressively integrated in the EU as a group. Not that it’s going to happen. In this quoted passage you essentially say these countries are an unsolvable mess and propose a solution that will never work. Yet it is obvious that the whole mess can be put back together again by respecting the sovereignty of Ukraine. That’s all that is necessary. If there is a real push from within the country to be more federal or to secede then it will reveal itself. It won’t need Russian troops and spies helping it along. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2385 "2014-04-09T00:56:51Z")
On 04-08-2014 at 12:48 PM\*\* I wrote:\*\* (A) The first fact is that Russia did not start the five day war in 2008, so there is no way XT’s CNN dude could be right. On 04-08-2014 at 12:00 AM **Human Action wrote:** “There’s more than one way to start a war. There’s firing the first shot, and then there’s doing everything you can to get the other guy to fire the first shot.” On 04-08-2014 at 02:25 PM **Human Action wrote:** “Again, there’s more than one way to start a war.” The fact remains that Georgia ‘fired the first shot’ and that is how they ‘started the 2008 five day war’ as was confirmed by the EU Commission. Question for Human Action: When you wrote, \*“there’s more than one way to start a war” \* is it your intent to convey that it is your opinion that Russia ‘started the war’ and therefore Georgia did not start the war? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2386 "2014-04-09T01:05:05Z")
For Christ’s sake use your imagination. There is of course more than one way to start a war. Just drop this. Why don’t you talk about whether the violent takeover of government buildings by pro-Russian demonstrators is more, less or equally as bad as the Kiev overthrow. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2387 "2014-04-09T01:19:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > There is of course more than one way to start a war. Just drop this. The EU spent $15 million to investigate the 2008 Russia/Georgia FIVE DAY WAR. They found that Georgia ‘started it’. Of course there are many ways that Georgia could have started a war. But they did it the way they did it. I’ve asked Human Action if that line the way you just put it, " **more than one way to start a war"** is intended to convey that _Russia started the war_. Is that what you think? If so why not say so, and let’s let Human Action answer the question. I do not wish to fail to understand why Human Action repeats a point that is not really relevant to the discussion. Anyone that has read the EU Commission report knows that Georgia started the 2008 Five Day War. If Human Action or you, think Russia started the 2008 Five Day War, then why not just come out and say it. Why beat around the bush? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2388 "2014-04-09T01:24:41Z")
Why did you capitalize 5 day war? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2389 "2014-04-09T01:29:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 04-08-2014 at 12:48 PM\*\* I wrote:\*\* (A) The first fact is that Russia did not start the five day war in 2008, so there is no way XT’s CNN dude could be right. > > On 04-08-2014 at 12:00 AM **Human Action wrote:** “There’s more than one way to start a war. There’s firing the first shot, and then there’s doing everything you can to get the other guy to fire the first shot.” > > On 04-08-2014 at 02:25 PM **Human Action wrote:** “Again, there’s more than one way to start a war.” And that remains true…see the [Mexican-American War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War#Background), for instance. The Mexicans fired the first shots; the question of who started the war isn’t so simple, and the U.S. was, at best, equally to blame. The world can be complicated that way. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The fact remains that Georgia ‘fired the first shot’ and that is how they ‘started the 2008 five day war’ as was confirmed by the EU Commission. I have never disputed that, making your repetition of it all the more puzzling. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Question for Human Action: When you wrote, \*“there’s more than one way to start a war” \* is it your intent to convey that it is your opinion that Russia ‘started the war’ and therefore Georgia did not start the war? They both, and South Ossetia, started the war. War, like success, can have many fathers (World War One is another example). Again, read the report, it’s all in there. Russia didn’t behave like peacekeepers trying to prevent a war, they behaved like a nation trying to provoke a conflict that they knew they’d win (and had carefully prepared for), so as to achieve their policy aims in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2390 "2014-04-09T01:35:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > For Christ’s sake use your imagination. There is of course more than one way to start a war. Just drop this. Why don’t you talk about whether the violent takeover of government buildings by pro-Russian demonstrators is more, less or equally as bad as the Kiev overthrow. This is indeed an extended hijack, albeit one that originated with an article about the Crimean crisis, and I apologize for my role in it. I’ll wrap it up shortly. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2391 "2014-04-09T01:47:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They both, and South Ossetia, started the war. But you say that you ‘never disputed this’: > [@](#): > > The fact remains that Georgia ‘fired the first shot’ and that is how they ‘started the 2008 five day war’ as was confirmed by the EU Commission. It can be said that Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia ‘escalated the crisis’… but it is false to say that all three ‘started the war’. Only one was found to have started the war. That is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2392 "2014-04-09T02:06:59Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > But you say that you ‘never disputed this’: By which I meant that the Georgians had fired the first shots. I can see how that’d be unclear, since your sentence had two parts. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It can be said that Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia ‘escalated the crisis’… but it is false to say that all three ‘started the war’. Only one was found to have started the war. That is a fact. My Lord, this is a Mobius strip…the above is true only if one accepts that the sole yardstick for war-startin’ is firing the first shots. As my examples of the Mexican-American War and World War One (to which I’ll add the Six-Day War) make clear, that premise is a false one. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2393 "2014-04-09T02:13:40Z")
You know what, **NotfooledbyW** how about this - by way of wrapping up this tangent, I propose the following: If you can quote the EU report saying that Georgia and only Georgia started the war - not Georgia attacked on the evening of August 7, but _Georgia started the war_, those words - I’ll concede this increasingly circular hijack and we can return to the regularly scheduled thread. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2394 "2014-04-09T02:22:13Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] The EU spent $15 million to investigate the 2008 Russia/Georgia FIVE DAY WAR. They found that Georgia ‘started it’. Of course there are many ways that Georgia could have started a war. But they did it the way they did it. [/QUOTE] Excellent! Cite the relevant page and quote the relevant passage and you win the internet! > [@](#): > > I’ve asked Human Action if that line the way you just put it, “more than one way to start a war” is intended to convey that Russia started the war. And he has explained, at length, exactly what he meant. I clearly understood what he said. I’m pretty sure EVERYONE did…except you, for some odd reason. > [@](#): > > Is that what you think? If so why not say so, and let’s let Human Action answer the question. He has. Several times. In several ways. You simply aren’t grasping his answer, either deliberately or because you don’t get it. It’s hard to tell which, to be perfectly honest with you. Why don’t you take his advice and wrap this hijack of the thread up. Simply cite the relevant page of the EU report and quote the passage that says what you claim it says. It’s really that easy. But you won’t because these sorts of hijacks are what you do in threads like this. Repeatedly. > [@](#): > > Anyone that has read the EU Commission report knows that Georgia started the 2008 Five Day War. I’ve skimmed it and I didn’t see where it says what you claim. My own reading of it (and the part I fucking quoted for you up thread) seemed to indicate that the blame for the ‘war’ was distributed to all of the major combatants, with Russia coming in for their share as well. But, you can resolve this easily by fucking quoting the passage that says what you claim it says. Which page was it on? I mean, since ‘anyone’ who has read the thing will see it, then show us. > [@](#): > > If Human Action or you, think Russia started the 2008 Five Day War, then why not just come out and say it. Why beat around the bush? He hasn’t. He’s been clear in his answer to your loopy, wandering text. With more patience than I have, that’s for sure. And I think that pretty much everyone else is easily able to understand his point, since he’s made it in at least a half a dozen different ways that I’ve seen so far…probably more. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2395 "2014-04-09T02:33:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > …the above is true only if one accepts that the sole yardstick for war-startin’ is firing the first shots. In this case it is true and it truly matters who fired the first shots because the EU Commission determined that Russia was justified to send its army and air force into Georgia in order to ‘defend’ the Russian peacekeepers who were under attack. Medvedev’s popularity would go up tremendously to take defensive military action after Russian troops have been killed by foreign aggression. You, in no factual way are entitled to presume and assert that Russian public opinion to support Medvedev after Russia had been attacked \*\*was solely or primarily because \*\*he went further across the proverbial proportionality line that was set by the EU in the EU’s ‘difficult’ judgment. It is a bogus conclusion to make. And your argument in defense of XT’s CNN dude is a farce because that dude’s point was that Russia ‘started the war’ and that it is now a tradition of starting wars to cover up domestic problems. You do not recognize that dude’s use of the word ‘tradition’. His point about ‘tradition’ that he was applying to Crimea using the term ‘aggression’ does not make sense in the context of your watered-down version that ‘all three started it’… all are at fault … to the point that no one is at fault. Do you accept that Russia was justified to invade Georgia \*\*in order to stop \*\*Russian military personnel from being killed by the massive artillery and tank assault on South Ossetia? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2396 "2014-04-09T02:42:19Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > In this case it is true and it truly matters who fired the first shots because the EU Commission determined that Russia was justified to send its army and air force into Georgia in order to ‘defend’ the Russian peacekeepers who were under attack. > > Medvedev’s popularity would go up tremendously to take defensive military action after Russian troops have been killed by foreign aggression. > > You, in no factual way are entitled to presume and assert that Russian public opinion to support Medvedev after Russia had been attacked \*\*was solely or primarily because \*\*he went further across the proverbial proportionality line that was set by the EU in the EU’s ‘difficult’ judgment. It is a bogus conclusion to make. > > And your argument in defense of XT’s CNN dude is a farce because that dude’s point was that Russia ‘started the war’ and that it is now a tradition of starting wars to cover up domestic problems. You do not recognize that dude’s use of the word ‘tradition’. His point about ‘tradition’ that he was applying to Crimea using the term ‘aggression’ does not make sense in the context of your watered-down version that ‘all three started it’… all are at fault … to the point that no one is at fault. > > Do you accept that Russia was justified to invade Georgia \*\*in order to stop \*\*Russian military personnel from being killed by the massive artillery and tank assault on South Ossetia? So, that would be a no…you don’t have a cite with a page number and a quote to back up your assertions. Got it. I’ll just keep repeating this every…fucking…time…you post something on this subject that is NOT a quote with a page number to back up your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2397 "2014-04-09T02:56:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And he has explained, at length, exactly what he meant. I clearly understood what he said. I’m pretty sure EVERYONE did…except you, for some odd reason. You are in error. Human Action has just answered my question that it is his opinion that Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia all started the war. That is false. But Human Action has not explained the ‘triple blame’ theory ‘at length’ until after I asked the question. On 04-03-2014 at 10:58 PM Human Action wrote, > [@](#): > > Georgia launched an invasion, yes. The question of who started the series of events that escalated to an invasion isn’t so simple. The truth is that the question of who started the WAR is very simple and the answer is very simple. It was Georgia. What Human Action was talking about on 04-03-2014 at 10:58 PM is the ‘series of events’ that escalated into Georgia’s invasion. And Human Action is wrong to pin that on Medvedev plotting in Moscow to bait Sakaashvilli into going on a stupid murderous rampage sending his army and rockets into South Ossetia. The EU Commission determined that all sides shared blame in the series of events’ that escalated into full blown war on August 8 2008 which was the result of Georgia’s full scale invasion that started the war on August 7, 2008. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2398 "2014-04-09T03:10:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You are in error. Human Action has just answered my question that it is his opinion that Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia all started the war. That is false. But Human Action has not explained the ‘triple blame’ theory ‘at length’ until after I asked the question. > > On 04-03-2014 at 10:58 PM Human Action wrote, > > The truth is that the question of who started the WAR is very simple and the answer is very simple. It was Georgia. > What Human Action was talking about on 04-03-2014 at 10:58 PM is the ‘series of events’ that escalated into Georgia’s invasion. And Human Action is wrong to pin that on Medvedev plotting in Moscow to bait Sakaashvilli into going on a stupid murderous rampage sending his army and rockets into South Ossetia. The EU Commission determined that all sides shared blame in the series of events’ that escalated into full blown war on August 8 2008 which was the result of Georgia’s full scale invasion that started the war on August 7, 2008. So, that would be a no…you don’t have a cite with a page number and a quote to back up your assertions. Got it. I’ll just keep repeating this every…fucking…time…you post something on this subject that is NOT a quote with a page number to back up your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2399 "2014-04-09T05:10:18Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You know what, **NotfooledbyW** how about this - by way of wrapping up this tangent, I propose the following: > > If you can quote the EU report saying that Georgia and only Georgia started the war - not Georgia attacked on the evening of August 7, but _Georgia started the war_, those words - I’ll concede this increasingly circular hijack and we can return to the regularly scheduled thread. Part 2: Use of force by Georgia A. Use of force by Georgia against South Ossetia I. Facts It is not contested that the Georgian armed forces \*\*started an armed offensive in South Ossetia \*\*on the basis of President Saakashvili’s order given on 7 August 2008 at 23.35.38 > [@](#): > > 19.) There is the question of whether the use of force by Georgia in South Ossetia, beginning with the shelling of Tskhinvali during the night of 7/8 August 2008, was justifiable under international law. It was not. The EU report talks much about the 'armed engagement between Russian and Georgian forces as the WAR. The EU report determines that Russia was justified to launch a counter-offensive… and invade the territory of Georgia to defend its peacekeepers and South Ossetian civilians. Actually the EU report also cites Sakaashvilli’s order to START a ‘defensive’ operation which the EU report shoots down as far as being defensive. But the start of the operation coincides with the FACTS of Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia: > [@](#): > > Outbreak of large-scale hostilities > > The rising tension in South Ossetia in the period of June-early August 2008, which was characterized by some analysts as a low-intensity war, culminated in a large-scale Georgian military operation against the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, > > undertaken in the night of 7-8 August 2008. > > On 7 August at 23.35 hours Georgian artillery units \*\*began firing \*\*smoke bombs and, subsequently, at 23.50 hours, \*\*opened fire \*\*on both fixed and moving targets of the “enemy forces” on the territory of South Ossetia.58 > > According to Georgian Government officials, this interval was supposed to allow the civilian population enough time to leave dangerous zones or to find protection/shelters.59 > > In the early morning of 8 August, Georgian troops\*\* launched a ground attack \*\*against the city of Tskhinvali as well as operations on the left flank of the city (by the 4th Infantry Brigade coming from Vaziani ) and on the right flank (by the 3rd Infantry Brigade coming from Kutaisi). The flank operations seemed to aim, inter alia, at occupying important heights surrounding Tskhinvali and then at moving further northwards to take control of the strategically important Gupta bridge and the roads, including the Ossetian-controlled Dzara by-pass road, leading from the Roki tunnel to Tskhinvali to block movements of the Russian troops from the north. > > After securing the heights in the vicinity of Tskhinvali, the Georgian forces (including > Ministry of Interior special forces), supported by artillery and tanks, moved into the town. By the afternoon of 8 August, the Georgian forces reportedly managed to seize control of a great part of the town of Tskhinvali (with the exception of its northern quarters and a part of its centre) and a number of villages, including Znauri, Muguti, Khetagurovo, Kokhati, Tsinagari, Orchosani, Didmukha, Gromi, Artsevi and Dmenisi. > > However, the Georgian troops in Tskhinvali and vicinity started to encounter growing fire power from the opposite side, including from the Russian air force and artillery. The flank operations of the Georgian forces were generally not particularly successful and they did not manage to achieve their main goal of blocking the Gupta bridge and the main routes leading to Tskhinvali from the Roki tunnel and the Java base. In the meantime the Gupta bridge was targeted by Georgian artillery and aircraft (4 Su-25) and reportedly damaged, but the bridge was quickly repaired by the Russian and the South Ossetian forces. > [@](#): > > The official Georgian information provided to the IIFFMCG says in this regard that “in order to protect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia as well as the security of Georgia’s citizens, at 23.35 on August 7, the \*\*President of Georgia issued an order to start a defensive operation \*\*with the following objectives: > > • Protection of civilians in the Tskhinvali Region/South Ossetia; > > • Neutralization of the firing positions from which fire against civilians, Georgian > peacekeeping units and police originated; > > • Halting of the movement of regular units of the Russian Federation through the Roki > tunnel inside the Tskhinvali Region/South Ossetia.”106 Russia denied it and dates the time of the start of the counter-attack: > [@](#): > > Georgian allegations concerning a Russian military build-up in South Ossetia prior to 8 August 2008 were denied by the Russian side. According to Russian official information provided to the IIFFMCG, the first Russian units entered the territory of South Ossetia and the Russian air force and artillery started their attacks on Georgian targets at 14.30 on 8 August,107 i.e. immediately after the decision on an intervention was made by the leadership of the Russian Federation. The War Started: On 7 August at 23.35 hours Georgian artillery units \*\*began firing \*\*smoke bombs and, subsequently, at 23.50 hours, \*\*opened fire \*\*on both fixed and moving targets of the “enemy forces” on the territory of South Ossetia. According to the Russians: the Russian air force and artillery started their attacks on Georgian targets at 14.30 on 8 August, According to the EU report Russian fighter Jets attacked Georgian targets some time prior to 14.30 on 8 August and they described it as ‘early’ morning. > [@](#): > > Part 2: Use of force by Georgia > A. Use of force by Georgia against South Ossetia > I. Facts > It is not contested that the Georgian armed forces \*\*started an armed offensive in South Ossetia \*\*on the basis of President Saakashvili’s order given on 7 August 2008 at 23.35.38 It is also uncontested that this offensive was directed – at least among other aims – against South Ossetian militia.39 Finally, it is also uncontested that as a result of this attack both civilians ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2400 "2014-04-09T12:27:40Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > In this case it is true and it truly matters who fired the first shots because the EU Commission determined that Russia was justified to send its army and air force into Georgia in order to ‘defend’ the Russian peacekeepers who were under attack. > > Medvedev’s popularity would go up tremendously to take defensive military action after Russian troops have been killed by foreign aggression. > > You, in no factual way are entitled to presume and assert that Russian public opinion to support Medvedev after Russia had been attacked \*\*was solely or primarily because \*\*he went further across the proverbial proportionality line that was set by the EU in the EU’s ‘difficult’ judgment. It is a bogus conclusion to make. Well, to be fair to me, I have evidence for that conclusion, which I’ve already presented: Medvedev took to the airwaves every year to reminisce about the tough, solitary decision to send Russian forces into Georgia. Naturally, the other decision he could have made would be to repulse the immediate attack, and then stop. So, at least in Medvedev’s own opinion, his accomplishment was to not stop there, but instead invade Georgia. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And your argument in defense of XT’s CNN dude is a farce because that dude’s point was that Russia ‘started the war’ and that it is now a tradition of starting wars to cover up domestic problems. You do not recognize that dude’s use of the word ‘tradition’. His point about ‘tradition’ that he was applying to Crimea using the term ‘aggression’ does not make sense in the context of your watered-down version that ‘all three started it’… all are at fault … to the point that no one is at fault. Yes, it makes sense, because it’s absurd to say that three nations (or enclaves) being at fault means none of them are at fault. Aren’t you a parent? Please tell me you don’t apply that reasoning to your kids. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you accept that Russia was justified to invade Georgia \*\*in order to stop \*\*Russian military personnel from being killed by the massive artillery and tank assault on South Ossetia? Only to the limits of the Caroline test. That said, the proportionality or lack thereof of the Russian response isn’t part of my argument, which only concerns Russian actions before August 7th. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Part 2: Use of force by Georgia > A. Use of force by Georgia against South Ossetia > I. Facts > It is not contested that the Georgian armed forces \*\*started an armed offensive in South Ossetia \*\*on the basis of President Saakashvili’s order given on 7 August 2008 at 23.35.38 > > The EU report talks much about the 'armed engagement between Russian and Georgian forces as the WAR. > The EU report determines that Russia was justified to launch a counter-offensive… and invade the territory of Georgia to defend its peacekeepers and South Ossetian civilians. > Actually the EU report also cites Sakaashvilli’s order to START a ‘defensive’ operation which the EU report shoots down as far as being defensive. But the start of the operation coincides with the FACTS of Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia: > > Russia denied it and dates the time of the start of the counter-attack: > > The War Started: On 7 August at 23.35 hours Georgian artillery units \*\*began firing \*\*smoke bombs and, subsequently, at 23.50 hours, \*\*opened fire \*\*on both fixed and moving targets of the “enemy forces” on the territory of South Ossetia. > > According to the Russians: the Russian air force and artillery started their attacks on Georgian targets at 14.30 on 8 August, > > According to the EU report Russian fighter Jets attacked Georgian targets some time prior to 14.30 on 8 August and they described it as ‘early’ morning. See, that’s “Georgia attacked on the evening of August 7”, which is what I said I didn’t want. Also, the report characterizes the pre-August 7th attacks as: > [@](#): > > The rising tension in South Ossetia in the period of June-early August 2008, which was characterized by some analysts as a low-intensity war… So, no, it doesn’t refer to the period of August 7th-16th as the entirety of the war. And, it refers to the August 7th as an escalation of hostilities, as it wasn’t a attack out of the blue, but the latest in a series of incidents: > [@](#): > > The dramatic escalation of hostilities in South Ossetia on 7-8 August… Now, consider these conclusions from the report: > [@](#): > > It follows that the threats of force issued by Russia and Georgia, and (to the extent that they did amount to such) of South Ossetia and Abkhazia are not justifiable under Art. 51 of the UN Charter and were thus illegal.37 Both Georgia and Russia violated the prohibition of threats of force under Art. 2(4) of the UN Charter. The mutual threats created a climate of mutual distrust, which escalated over the years up to the foreseeable serious crisis. > [@](#): > > Based on the foregoing, all parties to the Georgian conflict share responsibility for crisis escalation. There is no reasonable reading of the report that allows one to come away with the conclusion that: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The truth is that the question of who started the WAR is very simple and the answer is very simple. It was Georgia. …which is why you can’t find a quote to support it. Wars don’t spring fully-formed from the skull of Zeus, and this one was no exception. And, as a bonus, to support my claim that Russia’s actions were consistent with trying to achieve policy goals, and not acting as peacekeepers trying to prevent armed violence: > [@](#): > > The Russian side did not limit its threats to the exclusive objective of discouraging an armed attack, but sought to gain additional political concessions. 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