# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 122
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2421 "2014-04-12T15:03:42Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > Nothing inherintly wrong in demanding overdue payments, but it is curioius that Russia never demands that Ukraine pay its bills whenever there is a compliant (i.e. pro-Russian) government in Kiev. It is only when the Ukrainian authorities start acting independently of Moscow that Russia suddenly remembers that the bill is past due. Moscow/Gasprom sold gas under the market value of the price that EU negotiated. The Ukrainian nationalists rejected that discount when they violently discarded the elected president of Ukraine for the privilege of chumming up with the EU. Yanukovich was trying to get a better deal from the EU before taking that gas price hit. It’s hard to blame Russia for a hard line against mob rule in Kiev that did not seem to be concerned with paying the nations bills as long as they could poke a sharp stick in Putin’s eye. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2422 "2014-04-12T15:08:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Moscow/Gasprom sold gas under the market value of the price that EU negotiated. The Ukrainian nationalists rejected that discount when they violently discarded the elected president of Ukraine for the privilege of chumming up with the EU. Yanukovich was trying to get a better deal from the EU before taking that gas price hit. > > It’s hard to blame Russia for a hard line against mob rule in Kiev that did not seem to be concerned with paying the nations bills as long as they could poke a sharp stick in Putin’s eye. Part of the Russian gas hikes is because they gave a break for the navy base lease deal. They yanked those cuts because they stole the base. How fair is that? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2423 "2014-04-12T15:22:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Part of the Russian gas hikes is because they gave a break for the navy base lease deal. They yanked those cuts because they stole the base. How fair is that? I’m talking about rates negotiated by Yanukovich with Moscow before and I believe were in effect until around the time the Crimean Parliament ‘decdided’ to conduct a popular uprising and separate Crimea from Ukraine. Also The Russian Port had some kind of special autonomy and has little to do with the negotiated gas price that was pissed away by mobocracy at the end of February 2014. > [@](#): > > UPDATE 1-Ukraine hopes Russia will not change gas price > Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:13am EST > > Feb 24 (Reuters) - Ukraine hopes the price it pays for Russian gas will not change, Acting Energy Minister Eduard Stavytsky said on Monday, following the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovich as president. > > “We hope that the price (of Russian gas) will be stable,” Stavytsky told Reuters by telephone. > > Russia agreed in December to reduce the gas price for Kiev to $268.50 per 1,000 cubic metres, a cut of about one third from around $400 which Ukraine had paid since 2009. The reduction was part of a wider financial deal Moscow signed with Kiev after Ukraine spurned an EU trade deal. Read more: [Ukraine hopes Russia will not change gas price | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/24/ukraine-gas-idUSL6N0LT1DM20140224) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2424 "2014-04-12T15:36:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Part of the Russian gas hikes is because they gave a break for the navy base lease deal. They yanked those cuts because they stole the base. How fair is that? They didn’t exactly steal Sevastopol and The Navy Base there: > [@](#): > > Russia and Sevastopol itself consider it a federal city of the Russian Federation and part of the Crimean Federal District, while Ukraine and most other countries consider it one of Ukraine’s cities with special status.[3] The Russian military has displaced the Ukrainian military in the region, and Russia exercises administration over Sevastopol’s territory. Read More: [Sevastopol - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2425 "2014-04-12T15:38:46Z")
Read more: [http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/russias-gazprom-announces-40-percent-jump-in-gas-price-for-ukraine/article17752094/?service=mobile](http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/russias-gazprom-announces-40-percent-jump-in-gas-price-for-ukraine/article17752094/?service=mobile) > [@](#): > > Preparing to further raise the heat on Kiev, the Russian parliament moved to annul agreements with Ukraine on Russia’s navy base in Crimea. In 2010, Ukraine extended the lease of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet’s base until 2042 for an annual rent of $98 million and price discounts for Russian natural gas supplies. The lower house voted to repeal the deal Monday, and the upper house was to follow suit Tuesday. > > Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has said that Russia had given Ukraine $11 billion in gas discounts in advance and should claim the money back once the lease deal is repealed — a threat repeated Tuesday by Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin. hey we advanced you money on that base. Now that we took it from you, we want that money back. Nice. But “boo to the IMF gas hikes” of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2426 "2014-04-12T15:43:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > They didn’t exactly steal Sevastopol and The Navy Base there: > > Read More: [Sevastopol - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol) I read more. And it says this: > [@](#): > > Currently, (March 2014), the political status of Sevastopol remains uncertain, in March, 2014, as an apparent response to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution (a Ukrainian political shift which included a loosening of ties between Ukraine and Russia), Russia began to take both political and military steps in an attempt to re-annex both Sevastopol and the Crimean peninsula back to Russian administration. “Re-annex” is a polite way of saying “stole” in this context. But even your own quoted part is laughably unsupportive of your position. Russia thinks X and the rest of the world thinks Y so, it’s not really Y. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2427 "2014-04-12T15:56:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Anyway, the guy is a useless corrupt nobody. A captain that abandons ship should be fed to the sharks. Even Stalin knew that. It doesn’t matter that all the others are also corrupt; doesn’t make this guy any better. As Yanukovich was the elected president of Ukraine and having to escape to save his life, I don’t see how escaping with his life in that chaotic moment in time should be disparagingly viewed as giving up the ship. I agree with much other than that with you you are saying. And Yanukovich was run out of office because of protests turned violent for his rejecting the EU offer and going with the Russian deal. If it was about corruption impeachment should followed the constitutional route in order to deal with that. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2428 "2014-04-12T16:09:02Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Read more: [http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/russias-gazprom-announces-40-percent-jump-in-gas-price-for-ukraine/article17752094/?service=mobile](http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/russias-gazprom-announces-40-percent-jump-in-gas-price-for-ukraine/article17752094/?service=mobile) > > hey we advanced you money on that base. Now that we took it from you, we want that money back. Nice. But “boo to the IMF gas hikes” of course. That deal was in 2010 with the elected president of Ukraine and the rest of the government. I was talking about the deal to cut prices made last December that went lower yet. The mob in Kiev pissed on that deal. I’m sure if Kiev offers to pay the billions it owes for gas the Russians could honor the 98 million yearly deal for the Navy or deduct it. But there is no longer a dispute over which nation Sevastopol is a part of anymore is there? You ignore that Sevastopol’s status has been disputed for years. . ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2429 "2014-04-12T16:09:23Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And Yanukovich was run out of office because of protests turned violent for his rejecting the EU offer and going with the Russian deal. If it was about corruption impeachment should followed the constitutional route in order to deal with that. You mean something like a [vote in Parliament](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842)? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > But there is no longer a dispute over which nation Sevastopol is a part of anymore is there? > > You ignore that Sevastopol’s status has been disputed for years. So the status of Sevastopol has been disputed for years but now that dispute has magically gone away? Interesting ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2430 "2014-04-12T16:11:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I read more. And it says this: > > “Re-annex” is a polite way of saying “stole” in this context. > > But even your own quoted part is laughably unsupportive of your position. Russia thinks X and the rest of the world thinks Y so, it’s not really Y. What’s wrong with sticking to the language in Wiki instead of inserting your subjective and biased word in its place? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2431 "2014-04-12T16:17:45Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > You mean something like a [vote in Parliament](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842)? > So the status of Sevastopol has been disputed for years but now that dispute has magically gone away? Interesting No I mean the constitutional process that involves the courts. And one that does not involve a violent mob forcing the president to flee for his life over a policy dispute on how to resolve the nations economic problems. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2432 "2014-04-12T16:23:19Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > You mean something like a [vote in Parliament](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842)? > So the status of Sevastopol has been disputed for years but now that dispute has magically gone away? Interesting Not magically. The Crimean popular uprising and revolt in response to constitutional lawless and the chaos and violence in Kiev ended the disputed status of Sevastopol. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2433 "2014-04-12T16:39:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What’s wrong with sticking to the language in Wiki instead of inserting your subjective and biased word in its place? You asked us to read further. I did. You shouldn’t give cites that disprove your point and then blame the other person for actually reading them. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2434 "2014-04-12T16:40:03Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Not magically. The Crimean popular uprising and revolt in response to constitutional lawless and the chaos and violence in Kiev ended the disputed status of Sevastopol. I’m not sure you’re understanding the meaning of “disputed”. Since well over half of the world does not recognise Sevastopol as a Russian city, it’s status is very much disputed. And there’s very little Putin can do about that ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2435 "2014-04-12T16:51:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That deal was in 2010 with the elected president of Ukraine and the rest of the government. I was talking about the deal to cut prices made last December that went lower yet. The mob in Kiev pissed on that deal. This is an error. The mob did not renege on the lease agreement. Russia seizing the base is clearly the pissing on the deal. There can be no rational argument otherwise. > [@](#): > > I’m sure if Kiev offers to pay the billions it owes for gas the Russians could honor the 98 million yearly deal for the Navy or deduct it. I am sure that you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2436 "2014-04-12T17:52:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You asked us to read further. I did. You shouldn’t give cites that disprove your point and then blame the other person for actually reading them. You are in error. Reading further does not disprove my point. And replacing a word in WIKI with one’s own word surely shows how desperate some are to find me to be wrong about something. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2437 "2014-04-12T18:03:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > This is an error. The mob did not renege on the lease agreement. Russia seizing the base is clearly the pissing on the deal. There can be no rational argument otherwise. Russia didnt sieze their own base. What on earth are you telking about? Gas rates set in December 2013 had nothing to with lease amount for base through 2040. The mob violence coup of Yanukovich led to the end of those rates and now the same mob is complaining because they have to pay what the EU pays and now they can’t pay or don’t want to oat their bills. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2438 "2014-04-12T18:07:17Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I’m not sure you’re understanding the meaning of “disputed”. Since well over half of the world does not recognise Sevastopol as a Russian city, it’s status is very much disputed. And there’s very little Putin can do about that It seems you have not accepted the events of the past six weeks. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2439 "2014-04-12T18:33:55Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Russia didnt sieze their own base. What on earth are you telking about? Gas rates set in December 2013 had nothing to with lease amount for base through 2040. You know perfectly well what I am talking about. Why did Russia agree to the lease agreement if it was already theirs? Quit clowning. The mob governement specifically said they would continue respecting the agreement. Russia annexed Crimea and said “fuck you” to the agreement. As I said, there is no rational argument against that. That’s why you’ve switched to irrational argument. > [@](#): > > Preparing to further raise the heat on Kiev, the Russian parliament moved to annul agreements with Ukraine on Russia’s navy base in Crimea. In 2010, Ukraine extended the lease of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet’s base until 2042 for an annual rent of $98 million and price discounts for Russian natural gas supplies. The lower house voted to repeal the deal Monday, and the upper house was to follow suit Tuesday. > > Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has said that Russia had given Ukraine $11 billion in gas discounts in advance and should claim the money back once the lease deal is repealed — a threat repeated Tuesday by Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2440 "2014-04-12T23:00:15Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It seems you have not accepted the events of the past six weeks. I have witnessed them and have come to grudgingly accept the current reality. That doesn’t change the fact that only a dozen of countries recognise Sevastopol’s current status. Is that not the definition of a **disputed** status?😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=121) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=123)