# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 125
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2481 "2014-04-16T16:33:39Z")
[Unsurprising developments in the Ukrainian ‘anti-terrorist’ campaign in the East](http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-tightens-grip-eastern-town-talks-073939979.html) > [@](#): > > Separatists fly Russian flag over Ukrainian armored vehicles The paratroops in armored vehicles that were sent in to secure control of the town of Kramatorsk have either defected to the Russian side (as interviews with some of them indicate) or surrendered their vehicles to pro-Russian forces. Kiev needs to wake up to reality here. There is no way they can keep these provinces by force. Negotiation is the only answer, and that in effect means negotiation with Putin, painful as that might be. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2482 "2014-04-16T16:37:47Z")
Yep, BBC was there: > **[Pro-Russians surround Ukrainian convoy](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-27046087)** > > A Ukrainian military convoy including armoured vehicles has been surrounded by pro-Russia protesters and armed forces in Kramatorsk - a "very unusual situation" according to the BBC's James Reynolds. worst job in the world this week seems to be a soldier in the ‘Ukrainian’ army sent east. They’re basically not up for this fight, and who can blame them - they know they’re puppets. Other vids and locations also available from that link - liking the Lada chasing a tank. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2483 "2014-04-16T16:45:34Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Kiev needs to wake up to reality here. There is no way they can keep these provinces by force. Negotiation is the only answer, and that in effect means negotiation with Putin, painful as that might be. I think _Kiev_ knows it. However, the people paying Kiev don’t care, theyre not going to lose anything. It’s called imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2484 "2014-04-16T16:54:14Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I think _Kiev_ knows it. However, the people paying Kiev don’t care, theyre not going to lose anything. **It’s called imperialism.** Oh, there goes the I word again :rolleyes: The kind of imperial overlord that [waits until its colony holds democratic elections](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/us-ukraine-crisis-eu-agreement-idUSBREA2K0JY20140321) before signing a co-operation agreement with it. I’m sure Haiti, Cuba or India would have loved to have been part of such an empire in the past ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2485 "2014-04-16T17:01:32Z")
Look at the faces on those poor soldiers. Then look at the villagers. All that will happen is a lot of abandoned equipment. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2486 "2014-04-16T19:16:32Z")
Thank Christ that army is not in NATO. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2487 "2014-04-16T21:32:53Z")
Well, hopefully _Kiev_ \ will see the futility of forcing Ukranians against Ukranians when neither want it and both know they’re puppets. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2488 "2014-04-16T22:17:26Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Well, hopefully _Kiev_ \ will see the futility of forcing Ukranians against Ukranians when neither want it and both know they’re puppets. Uh-huh. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2489 "2014-04-16T22:33:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Thank Christ that army is not in NATO. From what I’ve read, their conventional forces’ decay since independence outpaced the Russians, and ironically Yanukovych had announced plans to reorganize and upgrade. Ironically because an army in good shape to put down a seccesion or resist an invasion would have also been in good shape to put down a popular uprising (unless of course they took the protesters’ side…). The Ukrainian military seems demoralized. It’s one thing if you’re unwilling to strike at your own citizens; or if you’re aware that any real aggressive action is suicide. But moving in just to surrender, well, that’s not a good sign… ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2490 "2014-04-16T23:43:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The essential status of Sevastopol was never meaningfully settled between Ukraine and Russia until last month with the referendum. The lease deals etc did not resolve the issue of whether Sevastopol was controlled by Ukraine in any practical way because the city’s populace have never assimilated into a Ukrainian identity. That issue is no longer in dispute between Ukraine and Russia. You seem to have a bizzare definition of the term “in dispute.” Let me spell it out for you: The mere fact that negotiations over Russia’s lease were contentious did not mean that Sevastopol was “in dispute” because at the time all sides still agreed that it was under Ukrainian soverignty. The fact that Russia now has de facto control over Sevastopol does not make the issue “settled” because there is still disagreement over who has de jour soverignty. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2491 "2014-04-17T00:01:45Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Well, hopefully _Kiev_ \ will see the futility of forcing Ukranians against Ukranians when neither want it and both know they’re puppets. They just spent the last few weeks not forcing the issue while protesters take over building after government buildings. I think they had a sense of the futility before this. The problem is what to actually do. Just let everyone who asks be an autonomous state? Just give the east to Russia? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2492 "2014-04-17T03:14:20Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > You seem to have a bizzare definition of the term “in dispute.” There is nothing wrong with my definition of dispute. The lease didn’t settle the essential matter of ownership in terms of Russian’s having the right to be there. The resident’s of Sevastopol did not relinquish their love for Russia when or because the lease was in effect. The lease did not turn them into Ukrainians. The dispute is over now because the residents of Sevastopol are re-united with the original owner of Catherin the Great’s Crown Jewel port city. When I say the dispute has ended it is akin to the reality that the ‘flashpoint between Russia and Ukraine’ has been extinguished and that was achieved with a remarkable series of non-violent events on the entire peninsula of Crimea. Sevastopol is not a flashpoint now and it is not conceivable that Ukraine has any intention of taking Crimea back. > [@](#): > > **Inside Crimea: A Jewel in Two Crowns** Crimea has been a flashpoint between Russia and Ukraine for decades. Here’s why. > > > [@](#): > > > > Navy cadets take the bus back to their barracks > > > > To remember the sacrifice of fallen soldiers is viewed as a holy duty in Sevastopol, which endured a 247-day-long siege by Hitler’s army in 1941-42. Yuri Perov, a Ukrainian naval cadet, takes the bus to his barracks after rehearsal for the Victory Day parade. > > > > Photograph by Gerd Ludwig, National Geographic > > . > By Cathy Newman National Geographic Published February 28, 2014 > > In 2011, National Geographic magazine visited Crimea for an in-depth look. Many of the issues we covered then are now in sharp relief as tensions rise between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians. > > Because of its history and bloody past, Crimea has been a flashpoint between Russia and Ukraine for decades. Here’s why. > > The past is never past in Sevastopol. It waves from flagpoles and drapes the parade stand on patriotic holidays. It finds sanctuary in war monuments and is posted on signs: Lenin Square, Heroes of Stalingrad Street, Cinema Moscow. It even simmers in a pot of borscht. > > Take Galina Onischenko’s version of the eastern European staple. “This is Russian borscht,” she said, setting down a porcelain bowl of “green” or summer borscht with its dill-flecked mosaic of beets, carrots, and potatoes. “No lard with garlic like they put in Ukrainian borscht.” (Related: “After Ukraine Crisis, Why Crimea Matters”) > > Galina, a 70-year-old grandmother with a cumulous cloud of white hair and stern, cornflower blue eyes, had returned to her fifth-floor walk-up from marching down Lenin Street waving a Soviet Navy flag in support of her beloved Black Sea Fleet. “Sevastopol is a Russian city, and we will never put up with the fact that Ukraine is in charge,” she said. > **[National Geographic](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/?rptregcta=reg_free_np&rptregcampaign=20131016_rw_membership_n1p_us_ot_c1)** > > Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2493 "2014-04-17T05:05:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There is nothing wrong with my definition of dispute. The lease didn’t settle the essential matter of ownership in terms of Russian’s having the right to be there. The resident’s of Sevastopol did not relinquish their love for Russia when or because the lease was in effect. The lease did not turn them into Ukrainians. The dispute is over now because the residents of Sevastopol are re-united with the original owner of Catherin the Great’s Crown Jewel port city. When I say the dispute has ended it is akin to the reality that the ‘flashpoint between Russia and Ukraine’ has been extinguished and that was achieved with a remarkable series of non-violent events on the entire peninsula of Crimea. Sevastopol is not a flashpoint now and it is not conceivable that Ukraine has any intention of taking Crimea back. Sevastopol may not be a flashpoint right now, but the rest of Ukraine is. That is “remarkable” alright, but not in the sense that you mean. Russia has succeeded in destabilizing a large chunk of Ukraine. The fact that you are cheerleading that situation is confusing at best, terribly disturbing at worse. Most of us do not wish for there to be another war in Europe, but that’s just crazy us. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2494 "2014-04-17T05:26:44Z")
The West rushed in like fools to support a regime which had no legitimacy at all in the eyes of half of the country. That regime, which had practically no representation at all from the Eastern provinces, then signed deals with the EU and IMF which would have had massive consequences both financially and politically for those provinces. (The IMF conditions were particularly harsh and would have cut deep in the industrial East). Is it any wonder that the populace there felt aggrieved? We brought this shitstorm on ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2495 "2014-04-17T08:32:50Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The West rushed in like fools to support a regime which had no legitimacy at all in the eyes of half of the country. That regime, which had practically no representation at all from the Eastern provinces, then signed deals with the EU and IMF which would have had massive consequences both financially and politically for those provinces. In all fairness, the EU **is** waiting for the new election to happen before they sign the full agreement with Ukraine. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There is nothing wrong with my definition of dispute. The lease didn’t settle the essential matter of ownership in terms of Russian’s having the right to be there. “Hello, Mr. Car Dealer. I would like to lease this car from you, while never acknowledging that you actually own it”. Good luck with that, mate ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2496 "2014-04-17T08:50:13Z")
On 04-12-2014 at 10:40 AM kurtisokc wrote: > [@](#): > > Nothing inherintly wrong in demanding overdue payments, but it is curioius that Russia never demands that Ukraine pay its bills whenever there is a compliant (i.e. pro-Russian) government in Kiev. It is only when the Ukrainian authorities start acting independently of Moscow that Russia suddenly remembers that the bill is past due. The trouble with your analysis is that the Ukrainian authorities that are now acting independently are not the\* ‘authority’ \*that won the last election. The current government has become “the authority” as a result of Euromaidan mobocracy. The Maidan protesters were not seeking Ukrainian independence. True independence would be a demand by all Ukrainians that Ukraine trades equally and in Ukraine’s best interest with their neighbor to the east and their neighbors to the west. The Maidan protestors were seeking dependence on the West. And you can’t tell me the West’s motivations were not based on s desire to slap Putin around and spit in his eye. ‘’ The Wests’ jubilation on this news was quite short-lived though, was it not?‘’’ _ **Deputies in the assembly stood, applauded and sang the national anthem** _. US Senator’s McCain and Patrick Murphy achieved their goals … were they applauding and singing the Ukrainian anthem right along with the Maidan Protestors having shared the stage in Protest with them in this unfolding debacle.? Pro-Maidan Politicians in the US and EU need to be held accountable for the mess they contributed to making. > [@](#): > > \*\*Ukraine Parliament votes to remove President Yanukovich \*\* > > DateFebruary 22, 2014 Timothy Heritage > > > [@](#): > > > > Ukraine parliament impeaches Yanukovich > > > > Ukrainian parliament celebrates after it impeaches President Viktor Yanukovich, who denounces the vote as a coup. > > > > Video settings > > Kiev: Ukraine’s parliament voted on Saturday to remove President Viktor Yanukovich from office, hours after he abandoned his Kiev office to protesters and denounced what he described as a coup. > > The apparent toppling of the pro-Russian leader looks likely to dramatically alter the future of the former Soviet republic of 46 million people, pulling it closer to Europe and away from Moscow’s orbit. > > It is also a stark reversal for Russian President Vladimir Putin’s dream of recreating as much as possible of the Soviet Union in a new Eurasian Union, in which Moscow had counted on Yanukovich to deliver Ukraine as a central member. > > > [@](#): > > > > Ukrainian national (bottom) and EU Protesters seized the Kiev office of President Viktor Yanukovich on Saturday, which appeared to have been abandoned. Photo: Reuters > > The Ukrainian parliament, which decisively abandoned Yanukovich after loyalists defected, declared the president constitutionally unable to carry out his duties and set an early election for May 25. > > Deputies in the assembly stood, applauded and sang the national anthem. > Read more: [Ukraine Parliament votes to remove President Yanukovich](http://www.smh.com.au/world/ukraine-parliament-votes-to-remove-president-yanukovich-20140222-339aw.html#ixzz2z8ASqkRS) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2497 "2014-04-17T08:58:53Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > In all fairness, the EU **is** waiting for the new election to happen before they sign the full agreement with Ukraine. > > “Hello, Mr. Car Dealer. I would like to lease this car from you, while never acknowledging that you actually own it”. > > Good luck with that, mate Cars don’t have 287 years of history and they don’t come with people already living in them as is the case in Sevastopol. Do you agree the ‘flashpoint’ of Sevastopol has been distinguished with the return of Sevastopol to its rightful and long term owner. The people who live there are where they’d rather be and there is no claims by Ukraine that would justify any use of force to take Catherine the Great’s city and port back. John McCain and Patrick Murphy’s pouting is to no avail and bothers not one Russian soul in Moscow or in Sevastopol, nor will he bother them ever again. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2498 "2014-04-17T09:17:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sevastopol may not be a flashpoint right now, but the rest of Ukraine is. That is “remarkable” alright, but not in the sense that you mean. Russia has succeeded in destabilizing a large chunk of Ukraine. The fact that you are cheerleading that situation is confusing at best, terribly disturbing at worse. Most of us do not wish for there to be another war in Europe, but that’s just crazy us. Are you Pro-Maidan Like John McCain and Patrick Murphy or Anti-Maidan like the majority of the residents in Southern and Eastern Ukraine. I don’t wish for war and never did. When the pro-maidan’s back off there be no more flashpoint in Eastern Ukraine also. Why did our government recognize the pro-maidan interim government after the coup last February? Aren’t you for staying out of other country’s internal affairs? Pro-Maidans forced the breakdown of constitutional law and order which triggered all events since. The rest of the world needs to pressure the illegal pro-Maidan government to refrains from the use of military force on the Ukrainian anti-Maidan protesters in the east and south. That is if you and the rest of the West don’t want to see a civil war in Ukraine. Why are you cheerleading for the pro-Maidan side? They started all this. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2499 "2014-04-17T09:33:32Z")
On 04-12-2014 at 11:43 AM **John Mace wrote** : > [@](#): > > I read more. And it says this: Currently, (March 2014), the political status of Sevastopol remains uncertain, in March, 2014, as an apparent response to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution (a Ukrainian political shift which included a loosening of ties between Ukraine and Russia), Russia began to take both political and military steps in an attempt to re-annex both Sevastopol and the Crimean peninsula back to Russian administration. “Re-annex” is a polite way of saying “stole” in this context. Do you notice the word ‘response’ - \*as an apparent _ **response** _ to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution \* - and “revolution”… ??? The landlord is presumably the elected leader that ‘owns’ the property and manages it. They had a revolution and tossed the legal owner out onto the street. Russia then does not recognize the new owners and having been asked by the citizenry of Sevastopol to back their ‘own’ revolution by holding a referendum on ‘re- annexation’ with Russia where they truly want to be and where they historically and in spirit belong - so they backed it and did it and its over. You condone one revolution which happened first… but you complain about the revolution that only ‘came in response’ to the first. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2500 "2014-04-17T09:50:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > O > The landlord is presumably the elected leader that ‘owns’ the property and manages it. They had a revolution and tossed the legal owner out onto the street. Russia then does not recognize the new owners and having been asked by the citizenry of Sevastopol to back their ‘own’ revolution by holding a referendum on ‘re- annexation’ with Russia where they truly want to be and where they historically and in spirit belong - so they backed it and did it and its over. No, the landlord is the nation of Ukraine. Since when is an elected official an “owner” of a country? At best, they’re the management company. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=124) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=126)