# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 126
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2501 "2014-04-17T10:16:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The people who live there are where they’d rather be Sure, just show me the results of a free and fair referendum and I’ll agree with you ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2502 "2014-04-17T10:41:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, the landlord is the nation of Ukraine. Since when is an elected official an “owner” of a country? At best, they’re the management company. The owners of the country did vote for the current representative in Kiev. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2503 "2014-04-17T11:12:09Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Sure, just show me the results of a free and fair referendum and I’ll agree with you Where was the free and fair termination of Yanukovich in February? The termination that set the Crimea stage for their own popular uprising. First things first. Are you disputing the ultimate will of the majority was not served by the referendum in Crimea? If you can’t move on the populations of the world will move on without you and without all the governments that are wrong on this issue too. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2504 "2014-04-17T11:13:53Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The owners of the country did NOT vote for the current representatives in Kiev. Corrected. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2505 "2014-04-17T12:03:17Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The West rushed in like fools to support a regime which had no legitimacy at all in the eyes of half of the country. That regime, which had practically no representation at all from the Eastern provinces, then signed deals with the EU and IMF which would have had massive consequences both financially and politically for those provinces. (The IMF conditions were particularly harsh and would have cut deep in the industrial East). Is it any wonder that the populace there felt aggrieved? > > We brought this shitstorm on ourselves. Even if it took 50 pages, at least you’re part way there. Ftr, it was a **coup** , paid for and engineered by the US primarily through USAID: > [@](#): > > The alleged conversation between Ms Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, appeared on YouTube on Thursday. > > The 4min 10sec video was entitled “Maidan’s puppets” in Russian - a reference to the square in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, where pro-EU protests have been held for months. A transcription of the whole conversation was also posted in Russian. > > At one point, the female speaker mentions the UN and its possible role in trying to find a solution to the Ukraine stand-off. > > She says: “So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and have the UN help glue it and you know…” she then uses the graphic swear word about the EU. > > The male replies: “We’ve got to do something to make it stick together, because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it.” > > The female speaker says that Mr Klitschko, the former heavyweight boxing world champion, should not be in any new government. “I don’t think it’s a good idea.” > > She adds: “I think Yats (Arseniy Yatseniuk) is the guy who’s got the economic experience.” Guess who is the the interim Prime Minister of _Ukraine_? > **[Ukraine crisis: Leaked phone call embarrasses US](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26072281)** > > An apparently bugged call between US diplomats reveals a frank exchange on the strategy for Ukraine and disparaging comments about the EU. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2506 "2014-04-17T12:35:42Z")
In case it wasn’t clear, the above “fuck the EU” from Ms Nuland was in reply to **aldiboronti’s** thought that “The West rushed in like fools…”. Ukranians are currently dying at the hands of Ukranians because the US wants Yatseniuk to push east. Fwiw, a reasonable definition of ‘puppets’ is a situation when the puppet master has little to lose - excect the cash money and/or arms it invested - and the puppets have pretty much everything. Which in my lifetime is a pretty good summation of US Foreign Policy across central and South America, MENA, and chunks of Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2507 "2014-04-17T14:32:10Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Ukranians are currently dying at the hands of Ukranians because the US wants Yatseniuk to push east. Going with your theory that the USA is driving all these problems, which is nuts, I am impressed with my government’s ability to control Ukraine and I am proud of their work. Look at it this way. When Russia manipulates Ukraine, the country breaks into pieces and at least 80 people were killed. When the USA manipulates Ukraine, the country doesn’t break up and less than 10 people have died. I think we’re 8:1 better imperialists. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2508 "2014-04-17T16:44:02Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Ftr, it was a **coup** , paid for and engineered by the US primarily through USAID: Cite? You’ve provided one that makes absolutely no reference to your grave accusations. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2509 "2014-04-17T17:12:15Z")
From The Bay of Pigs through Iran-Contra to WMD in Iraq, and several million innocent deaths in several dozen countries along the way. Beyond that do your own reading - there’s not exactly a shortage of ex-CIA staff who want to clear thier conscious via Amazon. /end of silly bollocks games ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2510 "2014-04-17T17:18:44Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > From The Bay of Pigs through Iran-Contra to WMD in Iraq, and several million innocent deaths in several dozen countries along the way. Beyond that do your own reading - there’s not exactly a shortage of ex-CIA staff who want to clear thier conscious via Amazon. > > /end of silly bollocks games I think you mean “conscience”. Also: because the USA attempted a coup back in 1961, the Ukrainian uprising is a coup? Come on mate, you can do better than this ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2511 "2014-04-17T17:25:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you Pro-Maidan Like John McCain and Patrick Murphy or Anti-Maidan like the majority of the residents in Southern and Eastern Ukraine. > I don’t wish for war and never did. When the pro-maidan’s back off there be no more flashpoint in Eastern Ukraine also. > > Why did our government recognize the pro-maidan interim government after the coup last February? Aren’t you for staying out of other country’s internal affairs? > > Pro-Maidans forced the breakdown of constitutional law and order which triggered all events since. > > The rest of the world needs to pressure the illegal pro-Maidan government to refrains from the use of military force on the Ukrainian anti-Maidan protesters in the east and south. That is if you and the rest of the West don’t want to see a civil war in Ukraine. > > Why are you cheerleading for the pro-Maidan side? They started all this. The “but Mommy, he hit me first” argument was addressed earlier in this thread. Not going to repeat it again. I am not cheerleading anyone. I’m not particularly pleased with how Ukrainian democracy has played out since the break-up of the USSR, and I’m not at all pleased with Russia trying to stoke the flames of separatism. Russia is acting as a destabilizing force, and so is the bad actor here. As much as we may disagree with the internal politics of Ukraine, they are still the internal politics, which are none of our business. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2512 "2014-04-17T17:33:41Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I think you mean “conscience”. > > Also: because the USA attempted a coup back in 1961, the Ukrainian uprising is a coup? Come on mate, you can do better than this Look, there isn’t a debate to be had on this point. If people want cites they really aren’t getting the very basics, and having looked at this thread periodically, that’s also pretty clear. In 50 pages, there isn’t enough insight in this thread to inform a high school debating society evening. But hey, if people want to yelp _cite_ at stuff that would embarrass first year undergrads., at least here they’re in company. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2513 "2014-04-17T17:41:49Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Look, there isn’t a debate to be had on this point. > > If people want cites they really aren’t getting the very basics, and having looked at this thread periodically, that’s also pretty clear. > > In 50 pages, there isn’t enough insight in this thread to inform a high school debating society evening. But hey, if people want to yelp _cite_ at stuff that would embarrass first year undergrads., at least here they’re in company. I don’t disagree the USA has interfered with the internal politics of dozens of countries. Weaker countries will always have their politics manipulated by stronger countries. Since Ukraine is weak and Russia is interfering with it then we should interfere as well and get as much from it as we can. God willing, we will succeed and get the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2514 "2014-04-17T17:44:11Z")
Well, this is disturbing. > **[Flyers In Eastern Ukraine Tell Jews To Register Themselves Or Face Expulsion](https://www.businessinsider.com/flyers-in-ukraine-demand-jews-to-register-2014-4)** > > This could demonstrate the real mindset of Pro-Russian separatists. > [@](#): > > Respected citizens of Jewish nationality! Given that the leaders of the Jewish community of Ukraine support the Banderite junta in Kiev and are hostile to the Orthodox Donetsk Republic and its citizens, the Main Staff of the Donetsk Republic orders the following: > > All citizens of Jewish nationality over the age of 16 who live on the territory of the sovereign Donetsk Republic must before May 3, 2014, appear before the Donetsk Republic commissar for nationality affairs in Room 514 of the government’s offices. The cost of registration is 50 US dollars. > > In addition to the sum of 50 US dollars, those registering must bring their passports so that their religious affiliation can be entered, documents about the members of their families, and also notarized documents about all the real estate and means of transportation you own. > > Those who refuse to register will be deprived of citizenship and forcibly expelled from the republic and their property will be confiscated. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2515 "2014-04-17T18:13:43Z")
Great satirical piece: [**I’m Confused, Can Anyone Help Me?**](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38248.htm) And boy! Do a lot of posters appear to need help here. ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2516 "2014-04-17T18:33:54Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Sure, just show me the results of a free and fair referendum and I’ll agree with you This. If the annexation was the result of a open and transparent democratic process then your arguments would have merit, but no matter how much you and Russia’s other cheerleader’s protest otherwise that was not the case. It is clear to anyone who hasn’t been brainwashed into drinking the Russian cool-aid that it was orchistrated by Russia from the start. And I don’t want to hear the argument “the USA has done the same thing.” This thread is not about Iraq or Bay of Pigs or anthing else the USA has done, so you can shove that red herring right up where the sun doesn’t shine. And Crimea’s history is actually quite a bit more complicated than you seem to acknowledge. Keep in mind that ethnic Russians didn’t make up a majority of Crimea’s population until the mid 20th century, and make up only a slight majority now (58% as of 2001.) Also, a majority of Crimeans voted in favor of Ukrainian independence in 1991. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2517 "2014-04-17T18:39:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, this is disturbing. > > [Flyers in Ukraine Demand Jews to Register - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/flyers-in-ukraine-demand-jews-to-register-2014-4) Ninja’d by **Malthus**. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2518 "2014-04-17T18:45:26Z")
At least today’s meeting [went much better than expected](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukraine-crisis-agreement-us-russia-eu). It wouldn’t be the first time that both sides reach an agreement just to shit on it just hours later, but let’s hope that doesn’t happen this time. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2519 "2014-04-17T19:36:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Great satirical piece: > > [**I’m Confused, Can Anyone Help Me?**](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38248.htm) > > And boy! Do a lot of posters appear to need help here. Is that your response to the neo Nazi like pamphlet or are you just blathering without reading along? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2520 "2014-04-17T19:44:27Z")
It appears the Jewish registration pamplets aren’t really from the governments in those areas… > **[Ukraine Is Not Ordering Its Jews to Register](https://newrepublic.com/article/117415/relax-ukraine-not-ordering-its-jews-register)** > > You can breathe easy. That rumor was inaccurate.  > [@](#): > > So, in conclusion: the Jews of Donetsk and eastern Ukraine may have been asked by a leaflet to register, but it has not been enforced nor are any Ukrainian Jews registering themselves. If that changes, I’ll be all over it, but so far, you can breathe easy. No Holocaust 2.0 just yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=125) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=127)