# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2521 "2014-04-17T19:47:20Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Ninja’d by **Malthus**. I suspect this will turn out to be bullshit. I’m sure the Ukrainian and Russian separatists are equally anti-Semitic but I doubt they’d be this blatant. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2522 "2014-04-17T19:54:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, this is disturbing. > > [Flyers in Ukraine Demand Jews to Register - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/flyers-in-ukraine-demand-jews-to-register-2014-4) The cost of registration is 50 US dollars? In Ukraine? I’ll bet you five rubles this is hogwash. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2523 "2014-04-17T20:03:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I suspect this will turn out to be bullshit. I’m sure the Ukrainian and Russian separatists are equally anti-Semitic but I doubt they’d be this blatant. There is no doubt it is not from the “official” breakaway government of the city. It is either designed to intimidate Jews by anti-Semitic elements of the breakaway gov’t in reaction to perceived Jewish loyalty to Kiev, or a provocation designed to smear the breakaway gov’t by elements hostile to it and loyal to Kiev. Either is possible. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2524 "2014-04-17T20:39:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Is that your response to the neo Nazi like pamphlet or are you just blathering without reading along? You may choose my response, while I imagine yours. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2525 "2014-04-17T20:43:58Z")
Amazing how many people simply don’t know that Denial is just not a river in Egypt. Well done for the MSM…I guess. Keep your reardership blind, dumb & ignorant of both facts and history. Certainly seems to work. Rah, rah, rah…USA #1 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2526 "2014-04-17T20:48:58Z")
Please at least try to make sense. What are we in denial of now? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2527 "2014-04-17T21:06:34Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > At least today’s meeting [went much better than expected](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukraine-crisis-agreement-us-russia-eu). It wouldn’t be the first time that both sides reach an agreement just to shit on it just hours later, but let’s hope that doesn’t happen this time. It’s hardly surprising _Kiev_ has given up any plans of asserting itself in the east, more amusement today. Nice of them to bus the soldiers back with a packed lunch: > **[BBC films missing Ukrainian tanks](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-27059753)** > > After Ukrainian forces recaptured an airfield outside Kramatorsk, BBC journalists witness local residents challenging soldiers and blockading armoured vehicles. Kerry now falls back on ‘negotiations’ while formulating Plan B, and says he will be “watching extremely carefully”. He’s running out of scary stuff pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2528 "2014-04-17T21:46:51Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Amazing how many people simply don’t know that Denial is just not a river in Egypt. > > Well done for the MSM…I guess. Keep your reardership blind, dumb & ignorant of both facts and history. Certainly seems to work. > > Rah, rah, rah…USA #1 I think CarnalK is from the UK, big guy. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2529 "2014-04-17T22:34:52Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > Also, a majority of Crimeans voted in favor of Ukrainian independence in 1991. The issue has been Crimea’s independence from Ukraine. It has nothing to do with all of Ukraine, including Crimea, gaining independence from Russia. That is a pointless point for the current discussion. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2530 "2014-04-17T22:39:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The “but Mommy, he hit me first” argument was addressed earlier in this thread. Not going to repeat it again. I am not cheerleading anyone. I’m not particularly pleased with how Ukrainian democracy has played out since the break-up of the USSR, and I’m not at all pleased with Russia trying to stoke the flames of separatism. Russia is acting as a destabilizing force, and so is the bad actor here. As much as we may disagree with the internal politics of Ukraine, they are still the internal politics, which are none of our business. Why did the US immediately recognize a the new government in Kiev that got there by coup and mob rule? None of our business should be none of our business if that is your position. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2531 "2014-04-17T22:48:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why did the US immediately recognize a the new government in Kiev that got there by coup and mob rule? None of our business should be none of our business if that is your position. It’s not really OUR business, no. We have recognized the new Ukrainian government contingent on their proposed elections, of course, and because Russia has chosen to directly involve themselves in what is for all intents and purposes the annexation of a border state (part of it so far, but obviously they plan for more based on recent events)…and that’s not something we would look in favor of. There is the fact (which you’ve tried hard not to address) that the previous government and President used extremely distasteful methods (otherwise known as ‘shooting people’) to attempt to stifle protest to his radical shift from closer ties to the EU to a 180 degree policy of closer ties to Mother Russia. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2532 "2014-04-17T23:18:47Z")
On 03-16-2014 at 03:09 PM **kurtisokc wrote** : > [@](#): > > The sad part is that this will not “end well” for Crimea. I wonder if kurtisokc, after thirty days, still agrees with himself. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2533 "2014-04-17T23:46:28Z")
On 04-17-2014 at 06:48 PM XT wrote: > [@](#): > > It’s not really OUR business, no. We have recognized the new Ukrainian government contingent on their proposed elections, of course, and because Russia has chosen to directly involve themselves in what is for all intents and purposes the annexation of a border state (part of it so far, but obviously they plan for more based on recent events)…and that’s not something we would look in favor of. I know the bit about 'contingent on their proposed elections, but are you also saying that the US has “recognized the new Ukrainian government … because Russia has chosen to directly involve themselves in what is for all intents and purposes the annexation of a border state.”? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2534 "2014-04-18T00:19:16Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Amazing how many people simply don’t know that Denial is just not a river in Egypt. > > Well done for the MSM…I guess. Keep your reardership blind, dumb & ignorant of both facts and history. Certainly seems to work. > > Rah, rah, rah…USA #1 RedFury, your post of 2:13 and this one contribute nothing to the ongoing discussion. If you’re going to participate do so constructively. Any more of this sort of thing and you’ll rack up another warning. I don’t think you want that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2535 "2014-04-18T00:24:03Z")
[Well, there’s an international agreement now, at least.](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukraine-crisis-agreement-us-russia-eu) > [@](#): > > The US, Russia, Ukraine and the European Union have reached agreement on a series of immediate steps aimed at pulling eastern Ukraine back from the brink of war. > > The deal, clinched after a dramatic extended meeting in Geneva, calls for the disarming of all illegal groups. In the next few days they would have to vacate all the government buildings and public spaces they have occupied over the course of the crisis. > > In return, the protesters in eastern Ukraine would be offered amnesty for all but capital crimes and the government in Kiev would immediately start a process of public consultation aimed at devolving constitutional powers to the provinces. > > The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will be given the job not only of making sure the agreement will be put into practice but also of helping to implement it. The US, Russia and European countries would provide monitors to beef up the OSCE’s manpower, which would be given access across Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2536 "2014-04-18T02:01:49Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 04-17-2014 at 06:48 PM XT wrote: > > I know the bit about 'contingent on their proposed elections, but are you also saying that the US has “recognized the new Ukrainian government … because Russia has chosen to directly involve themselves in what is for all intents and purposes the annexation of a border state.”? Well, the ‘and’ clause would seem to indicate that I’m saying both. There are other factors, of course, but yeah…part of the reason we are in the process of recognizing the Ukrainian government has to do with the fact that Russia has already annexed a chunk of it and is seemingly poised to snag more if they can swing it. We are opposed to such a move, as is the EU, so that is certainly a factor in recognizing the current government, contingent, as I said, on the proposed elections. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2537 "2014-04-18T02:28:56Z")
Ukraine looking to do the smart thing: rebuild their nuclear deterrent: > **[Is Ukraine about to go nuclear again? | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/16/opinion/hall-ukraine-russia-putin-nuclear/index.html?hpt=op_t1)** > > Three scholars fear that Russian actions in Ukraine may force the nation to reacquire nuclear weapons and ignite a new global arms race, thanks to Putin. Why not? The treaty that caused them to give up their weapons is now null and void. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2538 "2014-04-18T02:44:23Z")
On 04-17-2014 at 06:48 PM **XT wrote** : > [@](#): > > It’s not really OUR business, no. We have recognized the new Ukrainian government contingent on their proposed elections, of course, and because Russia has chosen to directly involve themselves in what is for all intents and purposes the annexation of a border state (part of it so far, but obviously they plan for more based on recent events)…and that’s not something we would look in favor of. But The White House \*\*‘welcomed the changes’ \*\*immediately in a kind of a victory lap. And that is not minding our own business or being neutral immediately following the breakdown in security and constitutional order for the elected highest leader (Equal to our Office of President) of a country who had to flee for his life in the face of protest and violence. > [@](#): > > …the White House issued a statement Saturday {Feb. 22} welcoming the changes and stressing that, “The unshakable principle guiding events must be that the people of Ukraine determine their own future.” > **[Archrival Is Freed as Ukraine Leader Flees (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0)** > > President Viktor F. Yanukovych fled Kiev, denouncing what he called a violent coup, as his nemesis, former Prime Minister Yulia V. Tymoshenko, was released from prison and Parliament found him unable to fulfill his duties. The White House also is quoted in the same NYTimes report saying: > [@](#): > > “The unshakable principle guiding events must be that the people of Ukraine determine their own future.” So instead of ‘welcoming’ the Euromaidan coup of an elected president the US should have listened to what Russian Foreign Minister (Lavrov) said cited in the same NYTimes report about 'constitutional order: > [@](#): > > In a telephone call, he told the foreign ministers of Germany, France and Poland, who helped mediate a short-lived peace deal agreed on Friday, that opposition leaders who signed the accord with Mr. Yanukovych had reneged on their commitments and were “following the lead of armed extremists and pogromists, whose actions pose a direct threat to Ukraine’s sovereignty and constitutional order.” Lavrov had a point from the very start. There was a breakdown in constitutional order in Kiev when Yanukovich was forced out of Kiev. And if the White House was serious about \*"The unshakable principle guiding events must be that the people of Ukraine determine their own future.” \* … Well the majority of people of Crimea wanted no part of the Euromaidan Revolution and they saw a chance to ‘determine their own future’ and they took it. > [@](#): > > The Ukrainian Constitution has been null and void since around February 22, 2014, when the Kiev mob overthrew a democratically elected President and the opposition seized power. > **[HeroSlot88: Situs Judi Dana Toto Slot Gacor Hari ini 2024 Dan Slot88](https://tllsga.org/)** > > Heroslot88 adalah salah satu daftar judi dana toto slot gacor online terpercaya di indonesia dengan di lengkapi slot88, judi bola, casino dan slot scatter hitam 2024. > [@](#): > > And that’s just fine, it’s “people power” and that’s supposed to be great and all, especially when it’s happening outside the West… but unless one wants to proudly and openly embrace double standards, then the mobs in Crimea have just as much of a right to decide their own destiny as do the mobs in Kiev. IF the US and EU were minding their own business they would have remained neutral on the mobs in Kiev ‘deciding their own destiny’ as well as neutral on the mobs in Crimea ‘deciding their own destiny.’ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2539 "2014-04-18T02:55:44Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] But The White House ‘welcomed the changes’ immediately in a kind of a victory lap. And that is not minding our own business or being neutral immediately following the breakdown in security and constitutional order for the elected highest leader (Equal to our Office of President) of a country who had to flee for his life in the face of protest and violence. [/QUOTE] Probably because of the whole shooting the protesters thingy that you continue to not address. You endlessly dance around the question of WHY your precious ex-President of the Ukraine had to flee in the first place. Oh, you’ve discussed the travesty of the event, and decried how unconstitutional it was, boohoo boohoo, but you don’t seem to want to deal with how things spun out of control from protests against your buddies 180 shift in policy to snipers shooting protesters down like dogs. > [@](#): > > So instead of ‘welcoming’ the Euromaidan coup of an elected president the US should have listened to what Russian Foreign Minister (Lavrov) said cited in the same NYTimes report about 'constitutional order: Oh, to be sure…we should have sent in the troops to force the Ukrainians to strict constitutional law despite the whole shooting the protesters thingy. I mean, right is right, after all. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Lavrov had a point from the very start. There was a breakdown in constitutional order in Kiev when. And if the White House was serious about "The unshakable principle guiding events must be that the people of Ukraine determine their own future.” … Well the majority of people of Crimea wanted no part of the Euromaidan Revolution and they saw a chance to ‘determine their own future’ and they took it. And here you ignore the fact that elections were being set up and that freaking Russian troops invaded the Crimea, interdicted and blockaded Ukrainian military facilities, and rail roaded a ‘democratic’ vote that got a 98% thumbs up for joining the Russian federation. And you think this is just peachy and democratic. > [@](#): > > IF the US and EU were minding their own business they would have remained neutral on the mobs in Kiev ‘deciding their own destiny’ as well as neutral on the mobs in Crimea ‘deciding their own destiny.’ 😛 Unlike Russia, who sent in troops and blockaded and interdicted Ukrainian military facilities to trump up a joke of a vote to bring the Crimea into Russia. Basically a land grab backed up by Russian troops, with more Russia troops skulking about the Ukraine’s borders while further workers and peasants rise up in the eastern provinces (oh, spontaneously to be sure, and nothing to do with Russia…nope, nothing to see here) to also demand joining the shining beacon of freedom that is Russia and Putin. Do you ever sit back and actually take a hard look at your position in this debate? Does it ever make you sick? It makes ME sick, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2540 "2014-04-18T03:10:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why did the US immediately recognize a the new government in Kiev that got there by coup and mob rule? Well, it wouldn’t bother me if the US didn’t recognize the new government, but it’s simply factually incorrect to refer to it as a coup by mob rule. Especially when you don’t refer to what happened in Crimea by the same name. > [@](#): > > None of our business should be none of our business if that is your position. It is. What is your position on the “mob rule” going on in eastern Ukraine right now? Or is the violent take-over of government buildings not “mob rule”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=128)