# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 129
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2561 "2014-04-18T19:43:00Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Ukraine bans entry for all Russian males aged 16-60: Aeroflot**](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ukraine-bans-entry-for-all-russian-males-aged-16-60-aeroflot.aspx?pageID=238&nID=65201&NewsCatID=353) > > I can see how this move is not bigoted in the least, especially considering close to 30% of Ukraine’s population is either Russian or or direct Russian descent. > > Now, Ukraine would have every right to not allow weapons into the country or decide on a case-by-case basis which Russians should be allowed and which ones shouldn’t be – e.g. the ones in active duty military or in intelligence services. But to say _ **all** _ Russians won’t be allowed entry is xenophobic and a textbook example of bigotry. > > Democracy in Ukraine: alive and well. According to The West. According to the report from the Turkish newspaper you’re linking to their source is a Russian naval vessel. Have any Ukainian officials publicly expressed this? Beyond that even if true it’s customary for the citizens of invading nations to be denied entry to a nation being invaded. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2562 "2014-04-18T20:01:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Ukraine bans entry for all Russian males aged 16-60: Aeroflot**](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ukraine-bans-entry-for-all-russian-males-aged-16-60-aeroflot.aspx?pageID=238&nID=65201&NewsCatID=353) > > I can see how this move is not bigoted in the least, especially considering close to 30% of Ukraine’s population is either Russian or or direct Russian descent. > > Now, Ukraine would have every right to not allow weapons into the country or decide on a case-by-case basis which Russians should be allowed and which ones shouldn’t be – e.g. the ones in active duty military or in intelligence services. But to say _ **all** _ Russians won’t be allowed entry is xenophobic and a textbook example of bigotry. > > Democracy in Ukraine: alive and well. According to The West. My god. You seriously think it would be more democratic to let in Russian citizens before a Ukrainian vote? You just buy whatever is fed to you, don’t you? As long as it’s dissing the West, other than that you are the height of critical thinking. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2563 "2014-04-18T20:06:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Putin hijacked Russia’s move towards democracy so I doubt I’ll ever like him but what you wrote here is idiotic and not worth a real reply. Perhaps you favor some ideal of democrat leader that did not exist and cannot easily exist in Russia at the end of centuries of authoritarian rule in 1991. To be fair you’d have to acknowledge that it was Kleptocrats that hijacked Russia’s move towards democracy under Yeltsin. Here’s a great read summarizing the moves to democracy in Russia written in July 2013 just before Putin changed his mind about ridding the civil war in Syria of the CW arsenal. > **[Why Putin Is Still so Popular in Russia](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/why-putin-is-still-so-popular-in-russia/278032/)** > > Russians seem to prefer a strong, authoritarian state to the weak government and economic chaos they experienced under Yeltsin. \*\*Why Putin Is Still so Popular in Russia \*\* Russians seem to prefer a strong, authoritarian state to the weak government and economic chaos they experienced under Yeltsin. Christopher Read - Jul 23 2013, 10:20 AM ET This article was originally published at The Conversation. Key Quotes: > [@](#): > > Writing in Komsomolskaya Pravda in the last months of the Soviet era, Alexander Solzhenitsyn observed: “The clock of communism has stopped striking. But its concrete building has not yet come crashing down. For that reason, instead of freeing ourselves, we must try to save ourselves from being crushed by its rubble.” > > But after the collapse of the Soviet system in 1991 it was not just rubble that was the problem. In a devastating decade the assets of the country were ripped off. Gangster capitalism emerged and preyed on the prostrate country. > > Much of the old Soviet elite – the nomenklatura who had been positively vetted for high posts in party and state – rapidly converted themselves into a property-owning middle class, with a new crude “aristocracy” of oligarchs of unbelievable wealth at the top. The poor, the vast pool of unemployed created by the theft of a nation, pensioners, the sick, the young whose schooling became a lottery, all suffered. Male life expectancy fell from 65 years in 1986 to 57 in the mid-1990s. > > This tragedy was presided over by Boris Yeltsin, drunken conductor of a German brass band, general buffoon, corrupt liner of his and others pockets on a grand scale but, more seriously, destroyer, in 1993, of the nearest thing Russia had to a parliament by firing shells on its White House home. > > He also crudely manipulated his re-election campaign in 1996, depriving opponents of a voice. Despite all this, unlike Putin, Yeltsin enjoyed a largely favourable press and image in the West. > > There were two reasons for this. The only organized alternative to Yeltsin was the rump of the communist party and his bizarre presidency ensured it would never reorganize or gain control. In addition, many foreign interests – especially oil, financial and legal services and some agribusinesses – were able to fish prize specimens from the dank, turbulent, and muddy pool. > > In 1998 a massive currency crisis finally stopped the ugly process in its tracks. Yeltsin had to step down for “health” reasons and the relatively unknown Putin was appointed as his successor in 1999. > [@](#): > > Putin’s style has certainly been authoritarian, but to see oligarchs as human rights victims is to stretch the definition. > > Other elements of his popularity have been a more assertive international stance in which Russia shows independence in the face of American and western opposition – currently manifesting in the crisis in Syria, one of Russia’s oldest allies – and a relatively successful economic policy which saw a period of growth, falling unemployment and rise in real wages, sometimes achieved by increasing state intervention in the economy, including the re-nationalization of factories and industries. Obviously, none of this was popular in the West, since they curtailed Western influence over the country, limited business opportunities and, supposedly, revived Soviet-era ghosts. The response of the Russian population, apart from its oligarchs and intellectuals, has been much more favorable and, even though they are slipping, Putin’s poll ratings remain very high. Disliking Putin for not quickly eliminating the ingrained imperfections of Russian democracy is one thing, but to say Putin hijacked the move to democracy in Russia is a stretch. {"There are many freedoms in Russia despite the obvious imperfections of its democracy. One of the most important features which is still lacking as a key to escaping this historic cycle is a genuine rule of law. - Christopher Read - Jul 23 2013, 10:20 AM } " > [@](#): > > It has often been said that the pattern of governing a vast country like Russia is that if the center is weak, chaos ensues. On the other hand, if the center is strong, state construction and tyranny ensue. Russians as a whole seem to prefer the latter to the former. Even so, Putin is no tyrant. > > There are many freedoms in Russia despite the obvious imperfections of its democracy. One of the most important features which is still lacking as a key to escaping this historic cycle is a genuine rule of law. Russia has never enjoyed this privilege. At one time Putin appeared to be constructing it. Worryingly, that project appears to have been stalled. > > However, his authoritarianism has been aimed in the direction of constructing a viable state, not only from the Soviet rubble but from the dissolution of central authority and economic meltdown promoted by Yeltsin. The dangers of over-centralizing are obvious, and the process is far from over. The situation needs to be watched carefully, but the full complexity with which Putin is dealing needs to be taken into account. This is an awareness of Russian reality that is rarely seen in Western politics and journalism: {_“However, his authoritarianism has been aimed in the direction of constructing a viable state, not only from the Soviet rubble but from the dissolution of central authority and economic meltdown promoted by Yeltsin. The dangers of over-centralizing are obvious, and the process is far from over. The situation needs to be watched carefully, but the full complexity with which Putin is dealing needs to be taken into account”_ - Christopher Read - Jul 23 2013, 10:20 AM } ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2564 "2014-04-18T20:13:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > My god. You seriously think it would be more democratic to let in Russian citizens before a Ukrainian vote? You just buy whatever is fed to you, don’t you? As long as it’s dissing the West, other than that you are the height of critical thinking. :rolleyes: Fuckin’ ridiculous. If they don’t have Ukranian citenzenship, they can’t vote. If they do, they sure as hell can – whether you (and all your cohorts) like their vote or not. Would you agree on a travel ban on all Arabs after 9/11? :rolleyes: How hard is that to figure out? Seriously, doesn’t take a rocket-scientist to figure it out. Your post is so far out of context it might as well be speaking about rugby. It’s the ban on _Russians_ that’s xenophobic and absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2565 "2014-04-18T20:17:37Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Fuckin’ ridiculous. If they don’t have Ukranian citenzenship, they can’t vote. If they do, they sure as hell can – whether you (and all your cohorts) like their vote or not. > > How hard is that to figure out? Seriously, doesn’t take a rocket-scientist to figure it out. Your post is so far out of context it might as well be speaking about rugby. > > It’s the ban on _Russians_ that’s xenophobic and absurd. Do you have confirmation of this from someone other than the Russian naval officer in the story from the Turkish newspaper you linked to? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2566 "2014-04-18T20:28:28Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Fuckin’ ridiculous. If they don’t have Ukranian citenzenship, they can’t vote. If they do, they sure as hell can – whether you (and all your cohorts) like their vote or not. > > Would you agree on a travel ban on all Arabs after 9/11? :rolleyes: > > How hard is that to figure out? Seriously, doesn’t take a rocket-scientist to figure it out. Your post is so far out of context it might as well be speaking about rugby. > > It’s the ban on _Russians_ that’s xenophobic and absurd. Gee. All those poor Russians that were planning on"vacationing" in the Ukraine will have to wait a month. Regardless, a ban on Russian visitors has little to do with “Democracy being alive and well”. If ethnic Russian voters are turned away at voting booths then you can start your wailing and rending of clothes. and as mentioned above, it’s nothing like 9/11. In case you forgot, Russia actually annexed a part of their goddamn country. Oh but hey, we got to have open borders, so we don’t appear xenophobic to RedFury. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2567 "2014-04-18T20:34:19Z")
More of Yeltsin’s moves to democracy that Putin has allegedly hijacked: > [@](#): > > Instead of having a referendum on five years of Yeltsin’s rule, his advisers managed to turn the election into a referendum on the abuses and atrocities of the communist past. When Yeltsin had been elected president in 1991, the two national TV channels were divided. One supported him. One opposed him. The fact that five years later, voters were subjected to a less open democratic process was a sad reflection on Yeltsin’s failure to build on the foundations that Gorbachev had left for him. > **[Boris Yeltsin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/russia.guardianobituaries)** > > Russia's first elected president, he earned admiration and hatred for his role in burying the Soviet Union. And Yeltsin was loved in the west. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2568 "2014-04-18T20:42:28Z")
Putin was Yeltsin’s handpicked successor. And I will not get into another drawn out Putin defending hijack with you so you might as well drop it here. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2569 "2014-04-18T20:45:06Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Gee. All those poor Russians that were planning on"vacationing" in the Ukraine will have to wait a month. Regardless, a ban on Russian visitors has little to do with “Democracy being alive and well”. If ethnic Russian voters are turned away at voting booths then you can start your wailing and rending of clothes. > > and as mentioned above, it’s nothing like 9/11. In case you forgot, Russia actually annexed a part of their goddamn country. Oh but hey, we got to have open borders, so we don’t appear xenophobic to RedFury. Dude, where did you get the info that there was going to be a massive influx of Russian vacationers for the referendum? And if they are not Ukranian, so what? In short, not paranoia but a solid cite. Japanese internment camps alright by you? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2570 "2014-04-18T20:45:10Z")
[Meh.](http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/04/17/Ukraine-cites-provocation-and-terror-concerns-as-reason-for-restricting-entry-of-Russian-men-into-country/8041397749761/) > [@](#): > > Ukraine’s border service announced Thursday that it had decided to “significantly” restrict Russian men from entering Ukraine “due to information about possible provocations on the national border and terrorist attacks.” The U.S. only relatively recently lifted i[ts post-911 travel restrictions on Saudis](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304830704577492450467667154) imposed for similar reasons. > [@](#): > > In the years following the security crackdown on Arab travelers after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks—in which 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi Arabian—tough restrictions kept most Arab students away from the U.S. In 2004, only about 1,000 Saudis were studying in the U.S. Maybe it is xenophobic and absurd but it is also standard practice in times when those with intent to incite violence or terrorism are expected to come in from a particular country. Putin’s dream is not of recreating the Soviet Empire than of recreating Imperial Russia with him as functional Tsar. It really is not dissimilar to the Islamist dream of recreating the Caliphate. It is also just as realistic, as likely to cause lasting harm to the world, and as fueled by those who are actually poorly equipped to thrive in the emerging new world inhaling too much petro-vapor. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2571 "2014-04-18T20:50:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Dude, where did you get the info that there was going to be an influx of Russian vacationers for the referendum? > > In short, not paranoia but a solid cite. I think all the strangely uniformed men and trucks with Russian license plates just before the Crimean referendum is all the cite anyone needs, if they aren’t naive to the point of idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2572 "2014-04-18T20:55:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Japanese internment camps alright by you? You _did_ make the point that the restrictions are for Russian nationals coming in from Russia, right? Were Japanese internment camps the same as having travel restrictions on people from Japan coming into the United States during WW2? These restrictions are somewhat similar to the latter and not at all to the former. Silliness. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2573 "2014-04-18T21:21:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think all the strangely uniformed men and trucks with Russian license plates just before the Crimean referendum is all the cite anyone needs, if they aren’t naive to the point of idiocy. And they voted? Again, cite. Meanwhile, keep spitting all the venom you want. Makes you feel better…speaking of “idiocy” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2574 "2014-04-18T21:33:36Z")
[**Obama: Russians Know Our Military Is Far Superior**](http://news.antiwar.com/2014/04/17/obama-russians-know-our-military-is-far-superior/) > [@](#): > > n a high-profile interview today, President Obama downplayed the military risks of plans to deploy US ground troops to Eastern Europe, saying Russia wouldn’t dare confront the US militarily and knows the US troops are “[significantly superior](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/04/16/obama-russia-doesnt-want-any-kind-of-military-confrontation-with-us/).” – more at source. Keep plucking that chicken after Iraq & Afghanistan (and weren’t we all impressed by the US’s easy dominace of each) vs the world’s arguably mightiest Nuclear Power. That’ll go well…right into WW-III ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2575 "2014-04-18T22:02:59Z")
LOL. I for one have every faith in Ukraine’s state border guards stationed on the Russian border. And as for Obama - this culture remembers the nazis like it were yesterday. Really, get over yourself, you’ve got nothing. Period ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2576 "2014-04-18T22:09:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And they voted? Again, cite. > > Meanwhile, keep spitting all the venom you want. Makes you feel better…speaking of “idiocy” It’s also about letting in military age men from a country that just annexed part of your own country. Your complaints are farcical. > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > LOL. I for one have every faith in Ukraine’s state border guards stationed on the Russian border. Yeah, the Ukrainian military, indeed the whole state apparatus is broken. Interesting how amusing you find that. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2577 "2014-04-18T22:25:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Obama: Russians Know Our Military Is Far Superior**](http://news.antiwar.com/2014/04/17/obama-russians-know-our-military-is-far-superior/) > > – more at source. > > Keep plucking that chicken after Iraq & Afghanistan (and weren’t we all impressed by the US’s easy dominace of each) vs the world’s arguably mightiest Nuclear Power. That’ll go well…right into WW-III Wait, so you blame the U.S. for Russia performing a land grab and risking a nuclear WWIII? Or is your position that the Russian military force would have a chance in hell against the U.S. and its allies in a war outside of Russia’s borders? If the point of your rah-rah Russia post was either of these, please explain how that position might be arrived at through logic. I’m not interested in bizarre fantasies, so if you don’t have some sort of reliable reference to back it up, don’t bother replying. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2578 "2014-04-18T22:35:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s also about letting in military age men from a country that just annexed part of your own country. Your complaints are farcical. Not quite like yours. You sound more and more like a xenophobe that thinks every Russian is out to destroy Ukraine. > [@](#): > > Yeah, the Ukrainian military, indeed the whole state apparatus is broken. Interesting how amusing you find that. It is. Nationalist/Nazis backed by _The West_ talking about a “united” Ukraine. There isn’t “one,” far from it – guess you fail to see the humor in that. Tragic as is. _Borders_? _What_ borders? And what the fuck is the illegitimate Gov in Kiev going to do about it? Meanwhile, Obama can boast his throat off. He isn’t going to do shit about it. Too fucking scared – as we should all be. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2579 "2014-04-18T22:43:33Z")
@ **scabpicker** : Keeping it short. I blame The West led by the US into _trying_ to circle Russia into oblivion what with Nato expansion and endangering Russia’s only outlet to the Mediterranean via their Black Fleet. They haven’t and they won’t. Called ‘miscalculation.’ Or “fucked-up” in short. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2580 "2014-04-18T23:37:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > @ **scabpicker** : Keeping it short. I blame The West led by the US into _trying_ to circle Russia into oblivion what with Nato expansion and endangering Russia’s only outlet to the Mediterranean via their Black Fleet. > > They haven’t and they won’t. Called ‘miscalculation.’ Or “fucked-up” in short. I don’t know of any attempt to deprive Russia of access to their Mediterranean ports by the U.S., Ukraine or anyone. And again, if Russia’s upset because their neighbors are interested in joining NATO, they should probably ask themselves why it looks so appealing to their neighbors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=128) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=130)