# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 133
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2641 "2014-04-21T17:37:23Z")
Post 2627 is stupid. “Hey, you say my points are irrelevant! That means they aren’t!”. tomndebb is not final authority, but he made a fair comment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2642 "2014-04-21T17:58:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Post 2627 is stupid. “Hey, you say my points are irrelevant! That means they aren’t!”. tomndebb is not final authority, but he made a fair comment. Yep. It’s a post empty of any substantive content, proving nothing. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2643 "2014-04-21T20:44:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yep. It’s a post empty of any substantive content, proving nothing. In the same way this a is a “we’ve got them’ bud” post? Og knows the thread is filled with them – substance? Not so much. Rebellion in Ukraine to the legal Gov…rah rah rah. How fuckin’ awesome! Resistance in Western Ukrakina to an illegitimate far-right wing coup financed by The West? Meh…_those Pro-Russian terrorist_!!!. Kewl narrative for those who buy it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2644 "2014-04-21T21:29:37Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > In the same way this a is a “we’ve got them’ bud” post? > > Og knows the thread is filled with them – substance? Not so much. > > Rebellion in Ukraine to the legal Gov…rah rah rah. How fuckin’ awesome! > > Resistance in Western Ukrakina to an illegitimate far-right wing coup financed by The West? Meh…_those Pro-Russian terrorist_!!!. > > Kewl narrative for those who buy it. 😛 As opposed to your own narrative full of CTs about doctors asserting then de-asserting who shot who, Rah Rah Putin! and anti-US screeds, right? Yeah, Red…you tell em! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2645 "2014-04-21T21:40:29Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > I’m not a military expert myself, but Russia’s access to the Med depends upon: > > [ol] > [li]The good will of Turkey and Greece, both which control the access to the Black Sea[/li] > [li]The goodwill of NATO, which has the military forces to impair Soviet shipping through the Med[/li] > [li]The US Sixth Fleet not being tasked to interdict Russian shipping in the Med[/li][/ol] > > Any problems with one or all three and the Black Sea is just a large salty lake. [li]Their “good will” will have shit to do if the Russians need a way out.[/li] [li]Well,the Russians ere not exactly impaired with their base/base at Sevatopol, they can carry “limited” work at Tartus. Enough to cause _a lot_ of damage. [/li] [li] No doubt The Sixth Fleet is The Bomb. But The Black Fleet is no picnic – especially the with the the “armies” you’ve faced of late – say forty years. [/li] But hey! should be fun if anyone is alive to have a bet after the nuclear fact. After all Russia is a "regional power"according to Oboma so no need to worry. [**Borders of Russia**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Russia) ---
**Author:** ![WallFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@WallFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WallFloor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2646 "2014-04-21T21:47:13Z")
[![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ5qrYJQydU) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2647 "2014-04-21T21:47:39Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [li]Their “good will” will have !@#$%^&\* to do if the Russians need a way out.[/li] > [li]Well,the Russians ere not exactly impaired with their base/base at Sevatopol, they can carry “limited” work at Tartus. Enough to cause _a lot_ of damage. [/li] > [li] No doubt The Sixth Fleet is the Bomb. But The Black Fleet is no picnic – especially the with the the "armies’ you’ve faced of late – say forty years. [/li] > But hey! should be fun if anyone is alive to have abet bet. After all Russia is a "regional power"according to Oboma so no need to worry. > > [**Borders of Russia**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Russia) A bunch of old rust bucket ex- Soviet frigates and subs are going to be a match for NATO forces? Keep dreaming. All of Putin’s adventurism is based on bluff, just like that guy, who marched into the Sudetenland about 7-8 decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2648 "2014-04-21T22:13:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > A bunch of old rust bucket ex- Soviet frigates and subs are going to be a match for NATO forces? Keep dreaming. All of Putin’s adventurism is based on bluff, just like that guy, who marched into the Sudetenland about 7-8 decades ago. Is this an original or an attribution? No need to answer, just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2649 "2014-04-21T22:28:10Z")
I think Hitler and Sudetenland is kinda a tame comparison. I’ve heard Putin is more like Sauron and Crimea is more like the attack on Gondor. Russian is the language of Mordor. Orcs everywhere. Anyway the Kiev junta already broke the agreement. All militia groups were to lay down their arms, but suddenly now the Maidan militias can keep theirs. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2650 "2014-04-21T23:38:19Z")
I don’t really buy that Kiev broke the ceasefire. Burned out cars with pristine license plates and Right Sector business cards on the scene? Umm ok sounds totally legit. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2651 "2014-04-21T23:41:23Z")
I could be wrong, but it doesn’t seem like any of the militias are disbanding, are they? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2652 "2014-04-21T23:51:53Z")
No. The militias have pretty bluntly stated they don’t accept the agreement in fact calling for Russian military and or weapons and supplies. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2653 "2014-04-22T00:22:17Z")
Yeah, any attempt at blaming Kiev for the truce not going forward is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2654 "2014-04-22T01:59:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [li]Their “good will” will have shit to do if the Russians need a way out.[/li] > [li]Well,the Russians ere not exactly impaired with their base/base at Sevatopol, they can carry “limited” work at Tartus. Enough to cause _a lot_ of damage. [/li] > [li] No doubt The Sixth Fleet is The Bomb. But The Black Fleet is no picnic – especially the with the the “armies” you’ve faced of late – say forty years. [/li] > But hey! should be fun if anyone is alive to have a bet after the nuclear fact. After all Russia is a "regional power"according to Oboma so no need to worry. > > [**Borders of Russia**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Russia) Let’s review: Russia hasn’t fought (and won) a major land conflict in almost 70 years. Russia has NEVER won a serious naval engagement in its history. Turkey and Greece are both NATO members meaning that the other members (especially the US) are treaty-bound to come to their aid if the Russian decide to press any perceived advantage occurring around the Dardanelles. If anybody would “lose” a nuclear conflict it would be a nation whose nuclear arsenal (along with its military) hasn’t seriously upgraded in at least two decades. That isn’t the US. Russia is a failing state with nukes. While it is a threat, that threat decreases daily as it expends its energies on useless regional conflicts and not on improving the lives of its citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2655 "2014-04-22T02:52:24Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > Let’s review: > > Russia hasn’t fought (and won) a major land conflict in almost 70 years. > > Russia has NEVER won a serious naval engagement in its history. > > Turkey and Greece are both NATO members meaning that the other members (especially the US) are treaty-bound to come to their aid if the Russian decide to press any perceived advantage occurring around the Dardanelles. We don’t want to fight but by Jingo if we do We’ve got the ships, we’ve got the men, we’ve got the money too We’ve fought the Bear before, and while we’re Britons true, The Russians shall not have Constantinople. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2656 "2014-04-22T03:07:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We don’t want to fight but by Jingo if we do > We’ve got the ships, we’ve got the men, we’ve got the money too > We’ve fought the Bear before, and while we’re Britons true, > The Russians shall not have Constantinople. Crimean War II. This time…it’s personal. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2657 "2014-04-22T03:59:30Z")
> [@WallFloor](#): > > [http://youtube.com/watch?v=JQ5qrYJQydU](http://youtube.com/watch?v=JQ5qrYJQydU) I always find crap like that rather pointless. You could make at least as good if not a better argument that the UK, France and the US had no moral authority to condemn Hitler or Japan for their invading and subjugating their neighbors. Hell, all three of those nations were, at that time, vastly, vastly more immoral than the US under the Bush years was. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2658 "2014-04-22T04:59:51Z")
On 04-18-2014 at 06:43 PM \*\*RedFury wrote \*\*to scabpicker: > [@](#): > > I blame The West led by the US into trying to circle Russia into oblivion what with Nato expansion and endangering Russia’s only outlet to the Mediterranean via their Black Fleet. Note the phrase -\* “with Nato expansion and endangering Russia’s only outlet to the Mediterranean via their Black Fleet”\* - and specifically this: only outlet to the Mediterranean **via their Black Fleet**" In the context of that wording, on 04-18-2014 at 07:37 PM **scabpicker wrote** : > [@](#): > > I don’t know of any attempt to deprive Russia of access to their Mediterranean ports by the U.S., Ukraine or anyone. When I read scabpicker in context of the phrase that RedFury used, it makes sense that scabpicker was responding to RedFury’s actual words: _only outlet to the Mediterranean **via their Black Fleet**"_. So on 04-18-2014 at 10:20 PM **I wrote** : > [@](#): > > “Yushchenko announced last summer that Ukraine would not extend the lease of the Sevastopol base beyond 2017, and urged the Russian fleet to start preparations for a withdrawal.” My understanding of RedFury’s and Scabpicker’s words appears to match what scabpicker thought he said the day before at 07:37 PM when he wrote on 04-19-2014 10:27 AM > [@](#): > > Ok, ignorance fought. However, that isn’t an agressive act, acts of this nature would warrant whining and negotiating. Going straight to invading your neighbors and depriving that country of their harbor is a bit extreme, don’t you think? But with people understanding what people are saying to each other, on 04-20-2014 at 12:52 PM tomndebb felt the need to chime in: > [@](#): > > I did not have time to fully respond to this silliness, yesterday, but I would further note that the statement was attributed to Viktor Yuschchenko in 2009, before he lost a whole series of election attempts and got himself marginalized in Ukrainian politics. It is rather like quoting Rep. Michele Bachmann from 2009 as representing U.S. government intentions today . Tomndebb is wrong. And the most silly argument here is comparing Michele Bachman to the President of Ukraine. On 04-20-2014 at 07:20 PM **tomndebb mistakenly wrote** : > [@](#): > > Your “evidence” that Ukraine wanted to close off Russia from the Mediterranean is based on a statement made by a politician who was voted out of office the year after he made this statement and who has failed to get even 2% of the vote in any subsequent election. That is clearly not an expression of the will or desires of “Ukraine.” Besides the Michele Bachman gaffe, Tomndebb’s further mistake is the claim that I tried to present “evidence” that Ukraine wanted to close off Russia from the Mediterranean. That was not my point. That is not the case. I was replying to scabpicker as the above text shows that there was in fact an attempt to deprive Russia of access to their Mediterranean ports by terminating the lease for Russia’s only outlet to the Mediterranean **via** their Black Sea Fleet. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2659 "2014-04-22T05:11:04Z")
Dance, NfbW, dance! ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2660 "2014-04-22T09:20:21Z")
After the head of the CIA’s visit two weeks ago, I see Joe Biden has started [electioneering for the puppet regime](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27106630). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=132) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=134)