# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 135
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2681 "2014-04-24T23:10:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So they are trying to trick Russia into starting World War 3. That’s a plan so clever we should pin a tail on it and call it a fox. You could put one of those bubble dialogue thingies they use in cartoons over Putin’s head, with a title like ‘what do the fox say?!?’… ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2682 "2014-04-24T23:33:45Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Putin’s response was immediate. “If the Kiev government is using the army against its own people this is clearly a grave crime,” he declared. > > And he is right. And it’s consistent with how strongly he feels about Assad using the military on his own people… Oh wait… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2683 "2014-04-25T00:07:40Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > And it’s consistent with how strongly he feels about Assad using the military on his own people… Oh wait… Are you sure about “his own people” part? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2684 "2014-04-25T00:08:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So they are trying to trick Russia into starting World War 3. That’s a plan so clever we should pin a tail on it and call it a fox. Don’t mind me less you miss the tail. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2685 "2014-04-25T00:10:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You could put one of those bubble dialogue thingies they use in cartoons over Putin’s head, with a title like ‘what do the fox say?!?’… So clever for words, it shouldn’t be written. Really. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2686 "2014-04-25T00:15:53Z")
Meanwhile keep reading your “news” [**NYT Retracts Russian-Photo Scoop**](http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/23/nyt-retracts-russian-photo-scoop/) And, of course, hate on. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2687 "2014-04-25T00:16:43Z")
The bear has been baited. All that’s left to do is turn it into a rug and light the fireplace. Jam on the one. Seacrest out. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2688 "2014-04-25T00:35:38Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Are you sure about “his own people” part? Positive. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2689 "2014-04-25T00:53:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Meanwhile keep reading your “news” > > [**NYT Retracts Russian-Photo Scoop**](http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/23/nyt-retracts-russian-photo-scoop/) > > And, of course, hate on. Hey, at least when western media gets something wrong they retract it. And the hate for Russia is obvious. You blame the west for interfering in Ukraine’s affairs but give a pass to Russia, because…uhm…fuck America. Fuck the west. When armed groups take over buildings, any country will respond by force. But Putin is telling Ukraine to leave the militant groups alone. So, do nothing and lose parts of the Ukraine slowly to pro-Russian groups, or act and lose parts of the Ukraine immediately to the Russian military. Win-win for Russia. And of course the west is standing by making idle threats so Putin has no incentive to back off. Oh us clever westerners. We want Ukraine as our own, so we stand back and watch as Russia annexes their country piece by piece. With such a strategy Ukraine will be our puppet in no time. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2690 "2014-04-25T01:13:18Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > So clever for words, it shouldn’t be written. > > Really. Oh, just sitting back and watching you perform. It’s quite amusing really. The taste of hypocrisy in the air…it smells like…victory. No doubt. What do the bear say? Well, with Red behind it, it say all your base are belong to us!! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2691 "2014-04-25T05:03:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What is with the balaclavas? In every single picture I’ve seen from this crisis, anyone - militia, uniformed regulars, **Russians pretending to be militia** - holding a rifle is also sporting a balaclava. Anyone know what the deal is with that? – bolding mine. Is this what you speak of: [**Ukraine: Out of Control**](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/04/24/ukraine-out-of-control/) > [@](#): > > They don’t make war propaganda like they used to – or maybe it has something to do with this newfangled thing they call the internet – but the latest “evidence” of Russian troops supposedly directly involved in east Ukraine turmoil was [**debunked**](http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/23/nyt-retracts-russian-photo-scoop/) almost as soon as it was made public. It turns out that a key photo touted by the US State Department and the New York Times as [**proof positive**](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/world/europe/photos-link-masked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html?_r=0) of Russian special forces in Ukraine was lifted off the photographer’s Instagram page. Yes, folks, it’s strictly amateur hour at the CIA, or whichever agency cooked up this “intelligence.” The photo wasn’t taken in Russia, as the Times and US officials claimed, but in Sloviansk, which fatally undermines their case that these are Russian special services. I should hope not. Rather embarrassing don’t you think? Or is there _anything_ the US can do that would be embarrassing? Bueller? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2692 "2014-04-25T05:14:34Z")
Good read: [**Obama Plays with Fire in Ukraine**](http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/obama-plays-with-fire-in-ukraine/) > [@](#): > > How many American parents would proudly send their sons and daughters off to kill or be killed in Slovyansk or Donetsk? How many young men and women aspire to be the first American to fall in Kramatorsk? > > Those towns are in eastern Ukraine. President Obama says the “military option” — war, that is — is not on the table in his effort to oppose Russia in the Ukraine crisis, but can we trust him? As pressure mounts on him from America’s war hawks, what will he do when sanctions fail to persuade Russian President Vladimir Putin to acquiesce? Will the military option then find its way onto that infamous table? > > Obama has dispatched 600 soldiers to Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. The U.S. Navy has ships present in the Black Sea, an understandably sensitive matter for Russia, which long has had a naval base in Crimea. That may not sound like a large force, but it takes only one soldier to be a tripwire for greater U.S. involvement in this volatile region. Americans should be uneasy with this recklessness on Obama’s part. > > Those four former members of the defunct Soviet bloc are now members of NATO, the very active alliance established after World War II ostensibly to keep the Red Army out of Western Europe. One might have expected NATO to disappear along with the Soviet Union, but something happened on the way to the post-Cold War world. The so-called defensive alliance not only remained in existence; it moved aggressively eastward toward Russia by inducting former Soviet allies and republics as members. > > _This expansion broke a promise that President George H.W. Bush made to former Soviet chief Mikhail Gorbachev, who was willing to live with NATO in Western Europe even with newly unified Germany as a member. But that state of affairs wasn’t good enough for America’s rulers, who, like most American rulers going back to the 18th century, believed the United States is destined to rule the world._ There was no chance that an alliance as useful as NATO was going to go away just because its apparent reason for being had ceased to exist – more at source. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2693 "2014-04-25T05:24:21Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Good read: [**Obama Plays with Fire in Ukraine**](http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/obama-plays-with-fire-in-ukraine/) > > – more at source. I’m a bit confused by your choice in sources. Is your opinion that slavery was good and that African-Americans belonged as slaves? I ask because that seems to be the opinion of the people you’ve used a a reference and I’m a bit puzzled because I honestly thought you hated racism and white supremacy? Was I wrong? I remember earlier you used a Francoist website as a major source even though you never struck me as a fan of the Generalissimo. Are you actually checking the beliefs and reliability of your sources or are you just looking for articles that say extreme things? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2694 "2014-04-25T06:36:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m a bit confused by your choice in sources. That’s because you direct your focus in the in the wrong direction. The source is irrelevant. The only thing that is of any matter is the words of the individual articles. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2695 "2014-04-25T06:51:56Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > That’s because you direct your focus in the in the wrong direction. The source is irrelevant. The only thing that is of any matter is the words of the individual articles. Huh? That’s a rather bizarre view of the world. You seem to be arguing that Mein Kampf and Abraham Sachar’s “A History of the Jews” should be regarded as equally valid and equally reliable sources. From my point of view such an attitude is jaw-dropingly stupid. Could you explain why I’m wrong? Or are you saying that RedFury doesn’t actually care about the reliability of his sources and just looks for sources that, to use your terminology, “have words in their articles” that gain notice? Thanks in advance for your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2696 "2014-04-25T07:43:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > That’s a rather bizarre view of the world. > > You seem to be arguing that Mein Kampf and Abraham Sachar’s “A History of the Jews” should be regarded as equally valid and equally reliable sources. > > From my point of view such an attitude is jaw-dropingly stupid. > > Could you explain why I’m wrong? > > Or are you saying that RedFury doesn’t actually care about the reliability of his sources and just looks for sources that, to use your terminology, “have words in their articles” that gain notice? > > Thanks in advance for your answer. What is bizarre? Any source - including Mein Kampf and “A History of the Jews” - should be judged on its own merit, not that of its author, the publication it is published in, the quality of paper, the choice of font, or any other external thing. I haven’t read “A History of the Jews”, and only some small snippets of Mein Kampf, but I strongly assume that you’d find that after reading the two books that the history book is the more reliable. I can’t comment on RedFury, but I assume he reads the articles he posts and find the arguments presented convincing. A convincing argument presented in The National Enquirer is as valid as a convincing argument presented in The Washington Post. If you have any problem with a link to an article he has posted, the correct thing would do would be to point out where it’s wrong, not comment on the publication. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2697 "2014-04-25T10:18:28Z")
Jesus, all this media/megaphone _diplomacy_ reminds me how, once it starts, the US never stops - like the words worst bullshit, nagging housewife. I guess the idea is still to fill the front page space with your stories. Tony Bliar’s people used to be good at that as well - just keep the _stories_ coming on a daily basis and keep the focus on you. Also, I do wonder a little if the US is slightly worried about the general abilities and flake potential of this particular puppet. Not exactly yer charismatic hardman the US likes to front their operations. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2698 "2014-04-25T10:35:52Z")
OK. Let’s judge the piece on its words: > [@](#): > > But that state of affairs wasn’t good enough for America’s rulers, who, like most American rulers going back to the 18th century, believed the United States is destined to rule the world. This is such silly nonsense as to render the rest of the piece worthless. The “rulers” of the U.S. have never believed that the U.S. was destined to rule the world. There was a brief period during the Cold War when a few leaders in government (or finance if one prefers conspiracy theories) thought that the U.S. should extend its power to “lead” the world, but extending that belief back to the 18th century demonstrates such a failure of historical knowledge as to discredit any other conclusions by anyone who would advance them. The U.S. has always been a fairly isolationist country, and that perspective was only briefly challenged after WWII, but even then, interventionist interests have never translated into a desire to “rule” and the isolationist perspective has always been a factor in U.S. policy and power even during the Cold War. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2699 "2014-04-25T10:45:27Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > When armed groups take over buildings, any country will respond by force. It should also always be mentioned that the Ukrainian armed groups in this case have a major grievance against an unelected interim government. The elected president, presumably put in office by them, was removed from office by violent force and replaced unconstitutionally by a regime that changed 180 degrees the political direction of Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2700 "2014-04-25T11:33:35Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It should also always be mentioned that the Ukrainian armed groups in this case have a major grievance against an unelected interim government. The elected president, presumably put in office by them, was removed from office by violent force and replaced unconstitutionally by a regime that changed 180 degrees the political > direction of Ukraine. Yup. Hence the need for a free and fair election three weeks from now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=134) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=136)