# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 138
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2741 "2014-04-26T00:33:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Almost 60 you say. I bet you have fond memories of Nicaragua. Being able to bash the States without the ugly need to cheerlead for a ruthless autocrat. I’d respond if I thought it’d make any difference, But I know it won’t. Besides, I’d already promised **XT** to provide entertainment in the form of **facts** – and I did, which only brought me a half-post away from a ban. The other half surely coming soon. Easy to see a seething Mr **Chance** – not unlike a seething Mr Obama though the stakes are, fortunately a joke at this level. Basically a one-sided pissing contest. “I’m The Boss” here. Yeah, OK, sure. Ask me if I give a fuck. So have your fun. I won’t be missed nor will I miss many. Meanwhile, in the real world, Russia’s Putin is winning every battle – outside the treacherous USA and their lapdogs. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2742 "2014-04-26T00:37:28Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Ah yes, Russia. [home of free and independent media](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17840134), [free and independent social media](http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/22/5638980/russias-largest-social-network-is-under-the-control-of-putins-allies), and [free of repression](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/fear-of-repression-looms-large-within-russian-federation-1.1770053). This is what we should all hope for, no? [**U.S. Plummets in Global Press Freedom Rankings**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-stearns/us-plummets-in-global-pre_b_4770182.html) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2743 "2014-04-26T00:43:42Z")
By the bye, out of all of those 800+ bases you have outside your country, I’d be willing to bet a Bricker-type that if put to a _popular_ vote you’d get kicked-out of _at least_ 80% of them. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2744 "2014-04-26T00:43:51Z")
Since it will mean higher energy prices and thus more work on energy producing facilities (e.g. more work for ME) I wholeheartedly hope that the Russian government is stupid enough to drive into Ukraine. Nothing like a lengthy regional war to drain away desperately needed hard currency from the Russian treasury. After a few years of hardship in Russia brought on by sanctions and money being diverted to the war effort, the Russian populace should be ready to hang Putin from the nearest streetlight. Or at least drive him into exile. Again, a win-win for the US as that will only leave China on the game board as a viable opponent. Next stop: Taipei. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2745 "2014-04-26T00:46:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > This is what we should all hope for, no? > > [**U.S. Plummets in Global Press Freedom Rankings**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-stearns/us-plummets-in-global-pre_b_4770182.html) When that list was brought up in regards to Putin , NFbW sloughed it off. And I wish you would notice that you are getting warnings for your hyperbolic bashing not your criticism of the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2746 "2014-04-26T01:05:11Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Almost 60 – no one gets to tell me what “I must improve.” One of the perks of old age. Oooh! “Almost” 60. :dubious: > [@RedFury](#): > > Good job, **Jonathan, “The Hitman,” Chance**. > [@RedFury](#): > > Improve _yourself_ dude & stop your witch-hunt against me or anyone who dares to differ from the USA’s famous “free speech” BS. There’s a laugh – and you are the joker proving it. > > Again. Improve _yourself_. Get off the cross. Your Mod notes and Warnings are directly tied to your personal attacks on other posters. You are not the only poster who denigrates the U.S. on a regular basis. You are the only poster expressing those views who is racking up Warnings for behavior. You have been begging to be suspended of banned for a few months. We are probably willing to grant you your wish. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2747 "2014-04-26T01:18:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Used to it after almost 14 years on this faux “progressive” US board. This place is a hilariously stereotypical distillation of U.S. progs. They aren’t generally anti-military or imperialism. At most they’ll criticize the other side for doing it wrong. Maybe the term is used differently where you live. It’s possible to oppose the aims of both the U.S. and Russia in Eastern Europe. If I were in the middle I’d probably want to be in the Western sphere though. At least that way you get cool stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2748 "2014-04-26T02:15:15Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > This is what we should all hope for, no? > > [**U.S. Plummets in Global Press Freedom Rankings**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-stearns/us-plummets-in-global-pre_b_4770182.html) US may be 45, and that’s not good, but Russia is [148](http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2749 "2014-04-26T04:33:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Oooh! “Almost” 60. :dubious: > > Get off the cross. > > Your Mod notes and Warnings are directly tied to your personal attacks on other posters. You are not the only poster who denigrates the U.S. on a regular basis. You are the only poster expressing those views who is racking up Warnings for behavior. > > You have been begging to be suspended of banned for a few months. We are probably willing to grant you your wish. Gee.Thanks,you are really too kind. Can’t imagine why you’ve kept me here for all these years. Mayhaps because in your hour of need, I responded with cash? Suicide by Mod. Quit the crap and ban me. Fuck it. It’d make my day you bunch of provincial ignorant Americans. Ciao. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2750 "2014-04-26T06:42:50Z")
For the record, I’m Canadian. While feeling superior to Americans substitutes for national pride for many of my countrymen I still find your antics in this thread quite ridiculous, RedFury. Really rethink whether you are being admonished for anti-american content rather than obnoxious style. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2751 "2014-04-26T11:01:36Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Nations would easily fall apart if every country gave in to separatist movements. Just because a group wants to fracture a nation in order to form its own nation doesn’t mean it should happen. Outsiders work very hard at forcing such divisions onto populations within set borders not for the fondness of the people there but for special interests. From the US, conservatives have their special interests and liberals have there special interests and of course all kinds of corporate interests are what ultimately are being serviced in someway: Remember when the US left, right and middle sided with the pro-Europe / anti-Russia guy during the “Orange Revolution”? This is how the NATION about four years ago saw that turn out: > [@](#): > > The dirty little secret about Yushchenko all along has been his close relationship with ultranationalist elements in western Ukraine. His “Our Ukraine” coalition includes some ultranationalist groups, and Yushchenko was on the board of MAUP, the controversial private university in Kiev. MAUP was nailed which produced nearly all of Ukraine’s anti-Semitic print material, and which counted former KKK leader David Duke as one of its favorite visiting scholars. Yushchenko finally resigned from his university board seat in 2005, after a three-year campaign waged by Jewish leaders both in Ukraine and in Washington. (A full account of this sordid episode is covered in a recent Moment magazine feature, “The Mysterious Tale of a Ukrainian University’s Anti-Semitic Crusade.”) > > In his last year and a half in office, not only has Ukraine collapsed economically and politically, lurching from bad crises to worse crises, but by adopting a belligerent, erratic posture over the past year and a half, Yushchenko has poisoned Ukraine’s well for years to come. > In 2008, when Russia and Georgia fought a brief war over South Ossetia, Yushchenko tried dragging his divided country into the conflict, by declaring solidarity with Georgia and threatening Russian warships stationed in the Crimea. > > Then he whipped up fear about an imminent Russian invasion of Crimea and sold it to gullible Western journalists and officials, who duly panicked, because after all, he was “our guy”–pro-Western, pro-American. > > After poisoning relations with Russia, Yushchenko set a new low in domestic politics by accusing his rival and former Orange Revolution cohort Yulia Tymoshenko of “high treason” and plotting with the Kremlin to hand over Ukraine. His demagoguery failed: Ukraine’s voters threw him out at the first chance, while Tymoshenko, who dropped the confrontational anti-Russian grandstanding, barely lost in the second round. > > Neocons loved Yushchenko’s late incarnation but his own people despised him. Even Burston-Marsteller CEO and former Hillary Clinton campaign strategist Mark Penn, who served as one of Yushchenko’s campaign advisors, couldn’t boost Yushchenko beyond the 5 percent barrier and rescue him from his own self-destruction. > > And to think we were going to plunge into a new cold war with Russia on behalf of Yushchenko and Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia–who recently announced that he was imposing mandatory patriotic-military classes to be taught in schools across Georgia, something not seen since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Read More: [http://www.thenation.com/article/hero-orange-revolution-poisons-ukraine#](http://www.thenation.com/article/hero-orange-revolution-poisons-ukraine#) And maybe the 25% minority of all of Ukraine’s population who are the hardworking Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine are fed up with all this 'anti-Russian crap that has gone of since 1991. And just because Yushchenko was despised by so many Ukrainians the last years for his totally inept performance as president following the Orange revolution does not mean that several years of this type of non-progress should be dismissed as some kind of inconsequential blip in Ukraine’s history. This all adds up to the current crisis and events. Brushing them aside as typical ‘separatists’ movements is an easy way to brush off all the turmoil that the EU and US ‘do-gooders’ have caused that group of people. Justin Ramondo on April 25, 2014 writes: > [@](#): > > There is only one solution to the Ukrainian “crisis,” and that is a referendum offering the people of east Ukraine a choice between the status quo, autonomy within Ukraine, or union with Russia. As both the more moderate Kiev officials and Putin seem to realize, federalism and decentralism are the keys to peace. > **[Ukraine: Out of Control - Antiwar.com](https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/04/24/ukraine-out-of-control/)** > > They don’t make war propaganda like they used to – or maybe it has something to do with this newfangled thing they call the internet – but the latest "evidence" of Russian troops supposedly directly involved in east Ukraine turmoil was debunked... I don’t think starting a shooting war to deny a vote on a referendum is something that ‘should happen’ at all. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2752 "2014-04-26T13:54:34Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I don’t think starting a shooting war to deny a vote on a referendum is something that ‘should happen’ at all. So if a war were to break out over the territorial sovereignty of **Ukraine** , you think Ukraine would be the one to blame? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2753 "2014-04-26T18:51:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Justin Ramondo on April 25, 2014 writes: > > [Ukraine: Out of Control - Antiwar.com](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/04/24/ukraine-out-of-control/) > > I don’t think starting a shooting war to deny a vote on a referendum is something that ‘should happen’ at all. Anyone can troll through the internet to find cites that back up our ideas, but most of us do at least a minimum of sifting in order to avoid citing [Truthers](http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j032202.html). ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2754 "2014-04-26T19:06:33Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > So if a war were to break out over the territorial sovereignty of **Ukraine** , you think Ukraine would be the one to blame? The unelected interim government in Kiev would be to blame. Yes ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2755 "2014-04-26T19:08:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Justin Ramondo on April 25, 2014 writes: > > [Ukraine: Out of Control - Antiwar.com](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/04/24/ukraine-out-of-control/) > > I don’t think starting a shooting war to deny a vote on a referendum is something that ‘should happen’ at all. Justin Raimondo is a truther who regularly promotes anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. I’d recommend finding a more reliable source. Or do you believer that truthers who traffic in Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are reliable. Edit: Oops! John Mace beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2756 "2014-04-26T19:09:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Anyone can troll through the internet to find cites that back up our ideas, but most of us do at least a minimum of sifting in order to avoid citing [Truthers](http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j032202.html). If you don’t have an argument about his opinion on the referendum then why not say so? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2757 "2014-04-26T19:10:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The unelected interim government in Kiev would be to blame. Yes In other news, the states of the Union are blamed for starting the American Civil War, and the Republican government for starting the Spanish Civil War. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2758 "2014-04-26T19:59:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If you don’t have an argument about his opinion on the referendum then why not say so? He’s questioning your choice in sources as am I which is fairly standard practice since we need to know how reliable a source is before judging a source. For example, Howard Zinn received considerable criticism when he used as one of his major sources on WWII David Irving, a well known Holocaust Denier in his A Peopke’s History of the United States. Now, perhaps you can answer my question. Why do you think a truther who spouts anti-Semitic conspiracy theories is a reliable source? Thanks in advance for your response. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2759 "2014-04-26T20:02:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The unelected interim government in Kiev would be to blame. Yes Technically, all the members of the government were elected, weren’t they? They just didn’t have enough seats to form a government before. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2760 "2014-04-26T20:18:36Z")
[**Democracy in action**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RNZWwfvz-U) in Keiv. But please, don’t believe your own eyes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=137) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=139)