# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 141
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2801 "2014-04-27T21:15:53Z")
> [@htwill](#): > > Russia under its treaty with the Ukraine was allowed to station up to 25,000 troops in the Crimea. The actual 3/4,000 it had stationed there were called out by the majority population within the Crimea due to a complete breakdown in law and order in which they, the Russian speaking population, were the innocent party in order to provide protection. The supposed “majority population” has no authority to invite a foreign occupation. Sorry. Besides, the “majority” didn’t have a vote and say “Come help us Russians!” so saying they invited anyone in is completely pulled from your/Russia’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2802 "2014-04-27T22:54:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The supposed “majority population” has no authority to invite a foreign occupation. Sorry. Besides, the “majority” didn’t have a vote and say “Come help us Russians!” so saying they invited anyone in is completely pulled from your/Russia’s ass. Also considering the fact that the current PM of Crimea was the head of a political party that failed to get even 5% in the last regional elections I strongly question how much support it has regardless of that joke of a referendum that reminded me of elections under Hafez Assad. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2803 "2014-04-28T00:23:26Z")
None can show a cite where Justin Raimondo wrote ‘TRUTHER’ material claiming the WTC was taken down by anyone other than the terrorists that actually flew hijacked airliners into it? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2804 "2014-04-28T00:29:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > None can show a cite where Justin Raimondo wrote ‘TRUTHER’ material claiming the WTC was taken down by anyone other than the terrorists that actually flew hijacked airliners into it? Straw must be on sale. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2805 "2014-04-28T00:47:06Z")
Cheap enough to burn. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2806 "2014-04-28T00:48:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The supposed “majority population” has no authority to invite a foreign occupation. The power/authority granted to the central government in Kiev by the constitution was dissolved when Yanukovich was forced out. The Crimean leadership seized authority in Crimea immediately following Yanukovich’s removal from office in Kiev. The Crimean leaders became the new authority and could invite whomever they wanted to help them secure a separate government from Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2807 "2014-04-28T00:52:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Cheap enough to burn. Not even tomndebb can come up with a cite where Justin Raimondo wrote ‘TRUTHER’ material claiming the WTC was taken down by anyone other than the terrorists that actually flew hijacked airliners into it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2808 "2014-04-28T01:04:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Not even tomndebb can come up with a cite where Justin Raimondo wrote ‘TRUTHER’ material claiming the WTC was taken down by anyone other than the terrorists that actually flew hijacked airliners into it? This is a flagrant straw man that I can only perceive as a deliberate attempt to derail the thread with nonsense. No one has stated that Raimondo was “claiming the WTC was taken down by anyone other than the terrorists that actually flew hijacked airliners into it.” They have noted that he is a Truther–someone who believes that the “official” story is bogus. There are many varieties of Truther and one need not believe in controlled demolitions or disappearing aircraft to be a Truther. His claim is that the terrorists could not have acted alone and he speculates that it was Israel that helped them. That Raimondo is a Truther is self-evident in this link, already provided: > **[9/11: Our Truth, and Theirs - Antiwar.com](https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/09/10/911-our-truth-and-theirs/)** > > Justin Raimondo says the 9/11 narrative makes no sense  that includes this claim: > [@](#): > > . . . but investigators suspect that the Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2809 "2014-04-28T01:10:42Z")
And if you try to wriggle out of the claim that Rainmondo is a Truther, I will note that under multiple definitions, he clearly is: > [@](#): > > 1. Truther > Noun- One who rejects the accepted explanation of the events of 9/11. Truthers generally believe the U.S. government committed the acts of terrorism against itself. He clearly meets the following definition that does not require any agents other than the actual nineteen hijackers: > [@](#): > > 1. Truther > Is one who rejects the official explanation provided for September 11, 2001. They include professional architects and engineers, scientists, and other scholars, firefighters, pilots, veterans, doctors, the victims families and people from countless other walks of life. People who reject the official explanation live in a paradigm that sees the mainstream media as a tool of manipulation for the masses. The following clearly describe him, as well: > [@](#): > > 1. Truther > A word for anyone who looks at a horrific event and sees a government conspiracy. > [@](#): > > 1. Truther > A word derived from the term “9/11 Truther”. Used to describe someone who believes in conspiracy theories and has a distrust towards their government. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2810 "2014-04-28T01:22:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [What makes you think I didn’t address that when I first raised the issue?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17326850&postcount=204) > > [As I said, cite already given.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17326850#post17326850) This link you say? [THE TRUTH, AT LAST](http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j032202.html) The cite you say was already given does not support the claim that Justin Raimondo is a Truther. It says this: Justin Raimondo wrote on March 22, 2002, “We won’t know for sure, of course, until a thorough investigation is undertaken.” > [@](#): > > TWO EXPLANATIONS > > As the story developed, however, one thing became all too clear: the Israelis could well have had foreknowledge of 9/11, and, as Carl Cameron averred, failed to inform the US. With the publication of “the ‘Israeli Art Student’ Papers,” however, we are faced with only two possible explanations: > > 1.The Israelis knew, but didn’t tell us, and Cameron’s surmise > is confirmed, or: > > 2.The Israelis knew and did tell us, but the incompetence of the US government got in the way of effective preventive action. > > SHINE THE LIGHT > > Given what we now know, either explanation is possible. We won’t know for sure, of course, until a thorough investigation is undertaken. But that won’t happen until and unless the media takes up this story, and starts reporting it to the American people. Then and only then will Congress be moved, perhaps, to awaken from its post-9/11 trance and come to life, awakened, perhaps, by the prospect of political gain, or the suspicion that the wool is being pulled over their eyes – maybe both. Whatever the motive, the results of such an investigation can only lead to the shedding of more light on a very dark subject. > > [THE TRUTH, AT LAST](http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j032202.html) does anyone read things in full and proper context around here? or or or or or {{{{{{ 1.The Israelis knew, but didn’t tell us, and Cameron’s surmise is confirmed, **or** : 2.The Israelis knew and did tell us, but the incompetence of the US government got in the way of effective preventive action.}}}} Does anyone know what “Cameron’s surmise” means? Is it being a 9/11 truther if one speculates that Israeli spies _ **did tell us, but the incompetence of the US government got in the way of effective preventive action** _? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2811 "2014-04-28T01:25:46Z")
1. Truther Noun- One who rejects the accepted explanation of the events of 9/11. Truthers generally believe the U.S. government committed the acts of terrorism against itself. So provide the cite where Justin Reimondo believes the US government committed the acts of terrorism against itself. Just provide the ‘cite’? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2812 "2014-04-28T01:34:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > 1. Truther Noun- One who rejects the accepted explanation of the events of 9/11. Truthers generally believe the U.S. government committed the acts of terrorism against itself. > So provide the cite where Justin Reimondo believes the US government committed the acts of terrorism against itself. > > Just provide the ‘cite’? Would you like a Warning for threadshitting? Read definitions 2, 6, and 7, (all taken from the Urban Dictionary). One does not need to believe the U.S. government was behind the WTC/Pentagon attacks to be a Truther. One need only believe that the government is lying about how it happened. You do not get to selectively pick and choose the definitions you use unless you are the first to use a word–and even then there are constraints on using idiolect. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2813 "2014-04-28T01:52:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > This link you say? [THE TRUTH, AT LAST](http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j032202.html) > > The cite you say was already given does not support the claim that Justin Raimondo is a Truther. It says this: > > Justin Raimondo wrote on March 22, 2002, “We won’t know for sure, of course, until a thorough investigation is undertaken.” > > does anyone read things in full and proper context around here? > > or or or or or > {{{{{{ 1.The Israelis knew, but didn’t tell us, and Cameron’s surmise > is confirmed, **or** : 2.The Israelis knew and did tell us, but the incompetence of the US government got in the way of effective preventive action.}}}} > Does anyone know what “Cameron’s surmise” means? > Is it being a 9/11 truther if one speculates that Israeli spies _ **did tell us, but the incompetence of the US government got in the way of effective preventive action** _? Wow… slow down, there dude. No need to court an aneurism. Just admit you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2814 "2014-04-28T01:52:02Z")
Fact and reason check for tomndebb’s argument starts with context within a specific very short period of time. 2. Truther Is one who rejects the official explanation provided for _ **September 11, 2001** _. 1. Truther Noun- One who rejects the accepted explanation of the events of 9/11. John Mace accuses Justin Raimondo of being a 9/11 Truther by citing something Justin Raimondo wrote on\*\*\* March 22 2002.\*\*\* Do you see the problem there? In regards to the events of 9/11, what was the \*\*accepted explanation \*\*on March 22 2002 when Justin Raimondo wrote what John Mace has cited? On March 22 of 2002 when Justin Raimondo wrote what John Mace has cited, what was the \*\*\*official explanation \*\*\*provided for the attacks on September 11, 2001? There was no official explanation of what happened when Justin Raimondo wrote what John Mace has cited was there? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2815 "2014-04-28T02:05:57Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There was no official explanation of what happened when Justin Raimondo wrote what John Mace has cited was there? Really? Then why did Raimondo post this? > [@](#): > > On September 11, 2001, nineteen hijackers, wielding nothing more lethal than box-cutters, commandeered four airliners, and turned them into lethal missiles, three of which managed to hit their targets – the World Trade Center and the Pentagon – while a fourth crashed in a field before it could strike its intended target — the White House. One of the hijackers had been in the United States since the mid-1990s, and the others, according to subsequent investigations, entered, exited, and re-entered the United States regularly starting in 2000. > In the years and months prior to 9/11, the terrorists remained undetected: there was not a hint, and certainly no warning, that we were about to experience the worst terrorist attack in our history. In spite of all the billions spent on “anti-terrorism” programs during the Clinton years, and the combined efforts of our intelligence community and those of our allies’, Mohammed Atta and his cohorts managed to evade detection until the day they emblazoned their vengeance across the sky and pulled off the biggest terrorist attack in US history. > **That, at least, is the official story.** Then post > [@](#): > > We are asked to believe that 19 men, armed with the most basic weapons, somehow managed to elude the biggest, most expensively-accoutered intelligence apparatus in the world — and the intelligence agencies of our allies, to boot. Utilizing nothing but box-cutters and the knowledge gleaned from a few weeks at flight school, these supermen somehow managed to steer those planes into two of the most visible potential terrorist targets in the US, one of which had been successfully targeted by terrorists before. They did this with no help from any foreign intelligence agency, no nation-state in on the plot, and they did it for less than $100,000. > _Really?_ He certainly thought there was an official story and he certainly denied that it as true. Now, stop this bullshit. You are not posting in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2816 "2014-04-28T02:39:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? > > Then why did Raimondo post this?Then post He certainly thought there was an official story and he certainly denied that it as true. > > Now, stop this bullshit. You are not posting in good faith. There is no bullshit. You are citing a 2009 commentary. > [@](#): > > 9/11: Our Truth, and Theirs by Justin Raimondo – [Antiwar.com](http://Antiwar.com) > > [9/11: Our Truth, and Theirs - Antiwar.com](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/09/10/911-our-truth-and-theirs/) > > Sep 11, 2009 … On September 11, 2001, nineteen hijackers, wielding nothing more lethal than box-cutters, commandeered four airliners, and turned them into … You were responding to this and call it bullshit: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW There was no official explanation of what happened when Justin Raimondo wrote what John Mace has cited was there? What John Mace cited to call JR a 9/11 TRUTHER was dated March 22, 2002. The official report of what happened did not come out until July 2004. > [@](#): > > The commission was established on November 27, 2002 (442 days after the attack) and their final report was issued on July 22, 2004. The report was originally scheduled for release on May 27, 2004, but a compromise agreed to by Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert allowed a sixty-day extension through July 26. [9/11 Commission Report - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2817 "2014-04-28T02:44:29Z")
Dude, when you’re in a hole, stop digging. Just admit you were wrong and trusted the opinion of a truther. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2818 "2014-04-28T03:01:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? > > Then why did Raimondo post this?Then post He certainly thought there was an official story and he certainly denied that it as true. > Now, stop this bullshit. You are not posting in good faith. According to Tomndebb, the following makes Justin Raimondo a 9/11 Truther: > [@](#): > > We are asked to believe that 19 men, armed with the most basic weapons, somehow managed to elude the biggest, most expensively-accoutered intelligence apparatus in the world — and the intelligence agencies of our allies, to boot. Utilizing nothing but box-cutters and the knowledge gleaned from a few weeks at flight school, these supermen somehow managed to steer those planes into two of the most visible potential terrorist targets in the US, one of which had been successfully targeted by terrorists before. They did this with no help from any foreign intelligence agency, no nation-state in on the plot, and they did it for less than $100,000. > Really? But from that same commentary JR explains: > [@](#): > > What I want to know is this: does Fox News stand by Carl Cameron’s reporting on the question of Israeli foreknowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Yes – or no? If so, then what is their loudest mouth – I refer, of course, to Glenn Beck – doing smearing someone as a “Truther” who is asking the same sort of questions asked by Fox News reporter Cameron? If Van Jones must go, because he’s supposedly a “Truther,” then Cameron must go, too. > No, I don’t expect an answer to my question any time soon – or, indeed, any time at all. I just want my readers to contemplate the implications of that, and what it says about the veracity of the “official” 9/11 narrative. What JR says he wants to know is this: “does Fox News stand by Carl Cameron’s reporting on the question of Israeli foreknowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Yes – or no?” What is wrong with asking Fox News to stand by its reporters and reports? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2819 "2014-04-28T03:13:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, when you’re in a hole, stop digging. > > Just admit you were wrong and trusted the opinion of a truther. You have yet to provide a cite where Justin Raimondo states that the US government committed the 9/11 acts of terrorism against itself or that Israeli agents knew about it in advance but did not tell the US Government that they were about to commit acts of terrorism against themselves. You have yet to provide a cite where Justin Raimondo states that Israeli agents knew about it in advance but did not tell the US Government about it. I certainly can’t trust an opinion from someone who can’t cite what he claims to have been stated. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2820 "2014-04-28T03:17:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You have yet to provide a cite where Justin Raimondo states that the US government committed the 9/11 acts of terrorism against itself or that Israeli agents knew about it in advance but did not tell the US Government that they were about to commit acts of terrorism against themselves. > > You have yet to provide a cite where Justin Raimondo states that Israeli agents knew about it in advance but did not tell the US Government about it. > I certainly can’t trust an opinion from someone who can’t cite what he claims to have been stated. Tom asked us to drop this so unless you want to take it to the Pit I am. I’ll merely note that I never made the claim you’re attributing to me. If you want to continue this, take it to Mace’s Pit thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=140) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=142)