# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2841 "2014-04-29T15:08:02Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > To actually talk about the Ukraine in the thread, the Mayor of Kharkiv was just shot in the back yesterday in an assassination attempt by unknown gunmen. Kharkiv was also the site yesterday of clashes between pro-Ukrainian soccer fans and pro-Russia supporters. Several people were injured. Apparently, he’s being treated at a hospital in Haifa, Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2842 "2014-04-29T16:22:58Z")
LOL. Helpful choice. Why not Havana or Caracus! It looks like he can be moved, and it’s not like they deal with gunshot wounds in Ukrainian hospitals or anything. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2843 "2014-04-29T16:47:00Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > LOL. Helpful choice. Why not Havana or Caracus! > > It looks like he can be moved, and it’s not like they deal with gunshot wounds in Ukrainian hospitals or anything. My guess, then, is that they moved him for security reasons (meaning that they can’t guarantee any), not medical or professional ones. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2844 "2014-04-29T18:03:33Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > LOL. Helpful choice. Why not Havana or Caracus! > > It looks like he can be moved, and it’s not like they deal with gunshot wounds in Ukrainian hospitals or anything. Err… I don’t get why you’re upset about him being treated in Israel? Also what’s the reference to Venezuela and Cuba? What were you trying to say? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2845 "2014-04-29T18:37:53Z")
Upset? I’m in tears here, in complete pieces. Next. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2846 "2014-04-29T18:59:15Z")
As Eastern Ukraine sinks deeper into chaos and bloodshed one has to wonder. Couldn’t the Maidan movement have seen this coming? Or did they really think the East would just roll over and go along with things? Why didn’t they go the democratic route and try to defeat the President in an election? And why the hell didn’t Western governments try to rein them in and point out the inevitable consequences of their actions? Instead they rushed in to legitimize the rebels as if this would somehow be a panacea for the country. The fact is there are no good guys in this mess and I certainly include the Russians in that. But to those who accuse Russia of stirring things up, do you honestly think that Eastern Ukraine would have calmly accepted this if only Russia had stayed out? No, the heaviest responsibility lies with the idiots who thought they could overthrow the legitimate government and not have the whole nation, and possibly the world, pay the price for their folly. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2847 "2014-04-29T19:31:41Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As Eastern Ukraine sinks deeper into chaos and bloodshed one has to wonder. Couldn’t the Maidan movement have seen this coming? Or did they really think the East would just roll over and go along with things? Why didn’t they go the democratic route and try to defeat the President in an election? And why the hell didn’t Western governments try to rein them in and point out the inevitable consequences of their actions? Instead they rushed in to legitimize the rebels as if this would somehow be a panacea for the country. > > The fact is there are no good guys in this mess and I certainly include the Russians in that. But to those who accuse Russia of stirring things up, do you honestly think that Eastern Ukraine would have calmly accepted this if only Russia had stayed out? No, the heaviest responsibility lies with the idiots who thought they could overthrow the legitimate government and not have the whole nation, and possibly the world, pay the price for their folly. I absolutely am of the honest opinion that the current fracas is the direct result of Russian instigation, and that without it, it would not have happened. I think the previous government was not “legitimate” at all. “Legitimacy” is not a prize bestowed by winning an election, that can never be lost no matter what a government does. In this case, the previous government lost all legitimacy by its incurable, outrageous corruption, combined with its attempts to violently muzzle essential freedoms. The fact that it was pandering to its Kremlin paymasters was merely the last straw. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2848 "2014-04-29T19:44:49Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Upset? I’m in tears here, in complete pieces. > > Next. I’m confused. You obviously had a strong reaction to him being treated in Israel by saying “LOL” and then said “why not Carascas or Havana?” So why did you react that way to him being treated in Israel and what was with the reference to Venezuela and Cuba? I’m honestly wondering because I don’t get you’re point and am politely asking you to explain? Could you do so? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2849 "2014-04-29T19:48:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This is why your stance that once one group violates the constitution, it should be considered null and void and everyone just do whatever they can get away with, is an _awful_ policy. Once you go down that road, it’s extremely hard to return to the rule of law. We should not have intervened on behalf of the original violating group and in parallel with that intervention complain about internal opposition in the semi-autonomous territory of Crimea that saw the breakdown of constitutional government in Kiev as the right time to separate and resolve that matter for once and for all. It is not some viewpoint that I conjured up. It is essentially what transpired in Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2850 "2014-04-29T19:50:35Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As Eastern Ukraine sinks deeper into chaos and bloodshed one has to wonder. Couldn’t the Maidan movement have seen this coming? Or did they really think the East would just roll over and go along with things? Why didn’t they go the democratic route and try to defeat the President in an election? And why the hell didn’t Western governments try to rein them in and point out the inevitable consequences of their actions? Instead they rushed in to legitimize the rebels as if this would somehow be a panacea for the country. > > The fact is there are no good guys in this mess and I certainly include the Russians in that. But to those who accuse Russia of stirring things up, do you honestly think that Eastern Ukraine would have calmly accepted this if only Russia had stayed out? No, the heaviest responsibility lies with the idiots who thought they could overthrow the legitimate government and not have the whole nation, and possibly the world, pay the price for their folly. Well, there’s an awful lot of what we call ‘handbags’ going on - like old ladies having an argument at a bus stop and hitting each other with their bags, but this is still a managed environment. A lot of noise, a lot of flexing and a lot of nonsense (the anti-Jew leaflets, the “torture”, this mayor…) but all that’s part of the game. The east wants a referendum - not usually the sign of a minority, and the west doesn’t want that to happen. So we’ll revert to the usual game of possession being 9/10ths (as per Crimea) which is what Putin is about and the west hasn’t yet found a way to stop him. If the puppet in Kiev keeps doing exactly what he’s told then things could become very unpleasant. You have to hope John Kerry doesn’t want Ukraine to be his example of what a meathead tough guy he is. At this point it would have been helpful, and even reassuring, to have HRC still in office. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2851 "2014-04-29T20:12:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We should not have intervened on behalf of the original violating group and in parallel with that intervention complain about internal opposition in the semi-autonomous territory of Crimea that saw the breakdown of constitutional government in Kiev as the right time to separate and resolve that matter for once and for all. > > It is not some viewpoint that I conjured up. It is essentially what transpired in Crimea. That doesn’t actually address what I wrote at all, unless it’s to concede that it’s an awful policy that’s destroying a nation. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2852 "2014-04-29T21:05:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We should not have intervened on behalf of the original violating group and in parallel with that intervention complain about internal opposition in the semi-autonomous territory of Crimea that saw the breakdown of constitutional government in Kiev as the right time to separate and resolve that matter for once and for all. > > It is not some viewpoint that I conjured up. It is essentially what transpired in Crimea. Yeah, you don’t have to conjure. You’ve been parroting Russia’s position for 50-odd pages now. You don’t have to post it, I can read their press myself. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2853 "2014-04-29T21:16:01Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > LOL. Helpful choice. Why not Havana or Caracus! > > It looks like he can be moved, and it’s not like they deal with gunshot wounds in Ukrainian hospitals or anything. So, is your problem the distance (looking at a map it looks to me as if Haifa is closer than Havana or Caracus), or is it that you feel there are plenty of good gun shot specialists in the Ukraine, so no point in moving him? If the later, what do you base that on? Just a gut feeling, or personal knowledge that there are plenty of specialists in the Ukraine who could easily do this and aren’t overly busy right now? Like Ibn Warraq I’m unsure what, if any, point you were trying to make there. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2854 "2014-04-29T21:24:24Z")
you looked at a map? That’s so sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2855 "2014-04-29T21:42:01Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > you looked at a map? That’s so sweet. So you’re really going to go the RedFury route and abandon discussion in favour of cryptic sarcasm? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2856 "2014-04-29T22:02:55Z")
yes it’s all about me. Me, me, me, and maps. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2857 "2014-04-29T22:12:46Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > yes it’s all about me. Me, me, me, and maps. So, are you actually going to explain why you reacted that way to the news about the Mayor being treated in Haifa and what your references to Venezuela and Cuba was about? You’ve had two different people politely ask you and neither of us have been snarky or insulting. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2858 "2014-04-29T22:41:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, are you actually going to explain why you reacted that way to the news about the Mayor being treated in Haifa and what your references to Venezuela and Cuba was about? > > You’ve had two different people politely ask you and neither of us have been snarky or insulting. Don’t worry about it. It’s just content free cynicism masquerading as intelligence. Probably thinks “Haha, they sent the puppet to a puppet hospital in puppet Israel to be treated by puppet doctors.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2859 "2014-04-29T23:03:03Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > you looked at a map? That’s so sweet. You didn’t? That’s so…you. Thanks for playing, here are your lovely parting gifts. This beautiful ceramic dog…the SDMB meaningless post game…tickets to 2 for a lovely evening in the Ukraine… ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2860 "2014-04-29T23:17:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’ve had two different people politely ask you and neither of us have been snarky or insulting. I remember you asking me why I was “upset” - kind of disengaged with you at that point. You get the respect you deserve, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=144)