# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 145
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2881 "2014-05-01T20:22:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s a pretty simple calculus for those people: what does the U.S. not want? Sad, but true. > [@](#): > > I also reject this dichotomy. For one thing, there are 225 voting districts in Ukraine, central authority isn’t necessary for an election to be held. If they can hold elections in Iraq and Afghanistan, they can hold elections in Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2882 "2014-05-01T20:24:53Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It appears that the pro-Maidan interim government has no governing authority in anti-Maidan Ukraine. > > Read more and see pictures at: [http://m.huffpost.com/us/slideshow/346591?entry\_id=5244763](http://m.huffpost.com/us/slideshow/346591?entry_id=5244763) > > On 04-26-2014 at 07:01 AM I wrote: Yes, we know you wrote that. This is, what, the 10th time you’ve quoted yourself as saying that? > [@](#): > > Since the pro-Maidan interim government appears to have lost authoritative control of anti-Maidan regions of Ukraine So you say. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2883 "2014-05-01T20:27:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If they can hold elections in Iraq and Afghanistan, they can hold elections in Ukraine. Certainly. Pro-independence or pro-devolution folks in the East could vote for pro-independence or pro-devolution candidates. Of course, those people winning would require the average Eastern Ukrainian being in favor of independence or devolution, as opposed to a minority of militamen. I’m not certain the militiamen, or Russia, will take that chance, when they are in a position to prevent a real election. That’s not what minority governments typically do (remember Egypt, **NotfooledbyW**?). But, it’s what should happen, especially if the anti-Maidan people want to hold on to any sort of moral credibility. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2884 "2014-05-01T20:43:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And if those anti-Maidan Ukrainians that you call ‘thugs’ have no desire to follow your advice do you support pro-Maidan interim government troops to start gunning them down with heavy artillery and airstrikes until they do take your advice? Pfft. This is not the first country to suffer civil strife. I expect the authorities to take action needed to restore order. There needn’t be a civil war unless the separatists want one. Seems to me you were the one cheering on the government troops in Egypt just a few months ago, so I’m not so sure why you suddenly had a conversion to the opposite viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2885 "2014-05-01T20:57:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I also reject this dichotomy. For one thing, there are 225 voting districts in Ukraine, central authority isn’t necessary for an election to be held. The pro-Maidan central authority will not allow or recognize individual voting districts to vote for a referendum on separation, more autonomy, or a more decentralized federal system. That is the problem. The pro-Maidan interim government wants all 225 voting districts to have a say. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2886 "2014-05-01T21:14:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Pfft. This is not the first country to suffer civil strife. I expect the authorities to take action needed to restore order. There needn’t be a civil war unless the separatists want one. > > Seems to me you were the one cheering on the government troops in Egypt just a few months ago, so I’m not so sure why you suddenly had a conversion to the opposite viewpoint. In Egypt the interim government suspended the constitution to maintain civil order. Also in Egypt the interim government has maintained its ability to govern. Its you and others who have found a new fondness for coup d’état in Kiev as a means of democratic action. But you insist in Ukraine’s case that the constitution remained intact following that coup. The pro-Maidan interim government must take heavy offensive military action to restore the order that you prefer. That would take heavy bombardment of a populated area, Sakaashvilli style in South Ossetia. That offensive military action could trigger a civil war which you are now seeming to prefer as long as you can blame it on the anti-Maidan protesters. I do not believe the US government supports a military assault on the anti-Maidan regions. Do you oppose official US policy on this matter or support it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2887 "2014-05-01T21:22:08Z")
I have no fondness for the Ukrainian government. But, unlike you, I also have no sympathy for lawless separatists fanned on by Putin so that he can get a Greater Russia or rebuild the old USSR or whatever his crazy dreams are. We’ve had enough bloody civil wars in recent times. If those “Russian speakers” are so in love with Mother Russia, they can pick up and move there. The have no right turn Ukraine, or part of it, into Russia except thru legitimate, constitutional action. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2888 "2014-05-01T21:41:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The pro-Maidan central authority will not allow or recognize individual voting districts to vote for a referendum on separation, more autonomy, or a more decentralized federal system. That is the problem. **The pro-Maidan interim government wants all 225 voting districts to have a say.** When you say “the pro-Maidan interim government” you mean “the Ukrainian Constitution”, right? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The pro-Maidan interim government must take heavy offensive military action to restore the order that you prefer. That would take heavy bombardment of a populated area, Sakaashvilli style in South Ossetia. That offensive military action could trigger a civil war which you are now seeming to prefer as long as you can blame it on the anti-Maidan protesters. It almost seems as if you’re looking forward to that scenario. Christ, you’re pretty much making plans for the military action yourself! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2889 "2014-05-02T01:47:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If those “Russian speakers” are so in love with Mother Russia, they can pick up and move there. The have no right turn Ukraine, or part of it, into Russia except thru legitimate, constitutional action. So if they have no right as you say then is it right for the interim pro-Maidan government to begin military action against them to force them to leave or perish? When should major military action start to clear out the anti-Maidan protestors? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2890 "2014-05-02T01:52:39Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > When you say “the pro-Maidan interim government” you mean “the Ukrainian Constitution”, right? > > It almost seems as if you’re looking forward to that scenario. Christ, you’re pretty much making plans for the military action yourself! No and no. I favor the scenario where the pro-Maidan interim government allows the referendum that that the anti-Maidan protest movement is demanding. All done without any types of military weapons being fired. Do you agree with me on that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2891 "2014-05-02T03:12:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So if they have no right as you say then is it right for the interim pro-Maidan government to begin military action against them to force them to leave or perish? When should major military action start to clear out the anti-Maidan protestors? It’s up to them what effort they use, not me. And there are lots of options besides “major military action”. Just because you can’t think of any doesn’t mean there aren’t any. Most of us prefer a hands off policy from both sides-- even Russia. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2892 "2014-05-02T07:51:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s up to them what effort they use, not me. And there are lots of options besides “major military action”. Just because you can’t think of any doesn’t mean there aren’t any. Most of us prefer a hands off policy from both sides-- even Russia. YMMV. You just won’t tell us what any of the ‘lots of options’ might be. The IMF will raise the costs for the pro-Maidan interim government if the Anti-Maidan protests are not removed. So another shot at limited military action by the pro-Maidan side may have started. If this one fails do the get more aggressive in order to avoid higher costs set by the IMF? > [@](#): > > The International Monetary Fund warned that if Ukraine lost territory in the east it would have to redesign a $17 billion bailout of the country, probably requiring additional financing. [http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5251046/](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5251046/) Anti-Maidan regions provide a good deal of tax revenue for Kiev’s interim pro-Maidan government. So hands off means what when it comes to the IMF and official US policy toward pro-Maidan government use of military force? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2893 "2014-05-02T12:31:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No and no. I favor the scenario where the pro-Maidan interim government allows the referendum that that the anti-Maidan protest movement is demanding. All done without any types of military weapons being fired. Do you agree with me on that? You think carving up a country is going to happen without bloodshed? How many times in history has this happened vs the times when there was bloodshed? You think all the folks in the those regions who don’t want to join Russia are just going to happily accept having their land transferred to another country? We’ll be lucky if this doesn’t start WWIII. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2894 "2014-05-02T12:48:41Z")
And it’s becoming very clear that the separatists are not interested in any referendum. They are intent on using force to achieve their political goals. Forget the peaceful change-over. The fighting has already begun. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2895 "2014-05-02T14:53:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The pro-Maidan central authority will not allow or recognize individual voting districts to vote for a referendum on separation, more autonomy, or a more decentralized federal system. That is the problem. The pro-Maidan interim government wants all 225 voting districts to have a say. Let me clarify: I’m referring to the presidential/mayoral election scheduled for this month, and not a local referendum. Once the new president is in place, the Verkhovna Rada can work on a deal on the nation’s future. In other words, rule of law: use the system that’s in place. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2896 "2014-05-02T16:16:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The pro-Maidan central authority will not allow or recognize individual voting districts to vote for a referendum on separation, more autonomy, or a more decentralized federal system. That is the problem. The pro-Maidan interim government wants all 225 voting districts to have a say. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Let me clarify: I’m referring to the presidential/mayoral election scheduled for this month, and not a local referendum. Once the new president is in place, the Verkhovna Rada can work on a deal on the nation’s future. > > In other words, rule of law: use the system that’s in place. As if this is some anomaly. How many countries in the world allow individual voting districts to secede on their own? Cheering on the break-up of a Central European country is not something to be done lightly. These things almost always end in violence, and can then spread to other areas like wildfire. If there is a long history of brutal repression, one might understand, but no such situation even remotely exists in eastern Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2897 "2014-05-02T16:23:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As if this is some anomaly. How many countries in the world allow individual voting districts to secede on their own? Cheering on the break-up of a Central European country is not something to be done lightly. These things almost always end in violence, and can then spread to other areas like wildfire. If there is a long history of brutal repression, one might understand, but no such situation even remotely exists in eastern Ukraine. There is a history (look up [Holodomor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)) of brutal repression. Of Ukrainians by Russians. Well, by the Soviets, but since Russians were the overwhelming majority of those… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2898 "2014-05-02T16:39:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is a history (look up [Holodomor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)) of brutal repression. Of Ukrainians by Russians. Well, by the Soviets, but since Russians were the overwhelming majority of those… Yeah, I didn’t particularly want to go there, but it does address the irony of the situation. Not to mention that Russia, itself, has lots of regions where the people would love to separate. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2899 "2014-05-02T19:03:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Let me clarify: I’m referring to the presidential/mayoral election scheduled for this month, and not a local referendum. Once the new president is in place, the Verkhovna Rada can work on a deal on the nation’s future. > > In other words, rule of law: use the system that’s in place. If you want rule of law and the constitutional system then put Yanukovich back in office to serve out his term and protect his life and government property. You start calling for rule of law after the pro-Maidan side broke it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2900 "2014-05-02T19:09:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You think carving up a country is going to happen without bloodshed? Crimea split off of Ukraine with hardly any shots fired. Would you support a major military offensive by Ukraine to take Crimea back through the use of force. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=144) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=146)