# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 147
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2921 "2014-05-02T22:47:22Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And you know that how? You were there? News reports. From foreign reporters who were there. > [@](#): > > What evidence? Putin’s statement that he intends to place Russian soldiers behind Ukrainian women and children. On video. Would you like me to link to it again? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2922 "2014-05-02T22:50:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Im against that because the pro-Maidan interim government will have to kill and maim a lot of anti-Maidan people in order to do it. I don’t see the legitimacy in the interim government launching a major military assault on the anti-Maidan regions of Ukraine. OK, I see. You’re not really against killing and maiming, but only against it when one side is doing it. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2923 "2014-05-02T23:13:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > News reports. From foreign reporters who were there. I see no links. What is it exactly you are arguing for anyway? That the arson and murder was justified? > [@Terr](#): > > Putin’s statement that he intends to place Russian soldiers behind Ukrainian women and children. On video. Would you like me to link to it again? You have nothing. Airing the sentiment – possible wrong at this point – that Ukrainian (conscript, underpaid, badly equipped) soldiers are unlikely to start shooting at their own countrymen is not evidence of intent of anything at all. He was merely saying that Russia has not and wouldn’t need to put men in Ukraine since the uprising is entirely native to Ukraine. And even if was saying the exact opposite, then still nothing. Words are words. A crime demands action. And btw. have you read some of the things coming out of the mouths of Ukrainian officials. Kill the Russians, Shoot them, Hang them, Nuke them, Russians to the knives. What would you say that is intend of? Here is a first hand account: [http://infovek.org/utselevshij-iz-odesskoj-haty-ni-ya-nikogda-ne-zabudu-e-togo-uzhasa/](http://infovek.org/utselevshij-iz-odesskoj-haty-ni-ya-nikogda-ne-zabudu-e-togo-uzhasa/) Here is a video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYNFqP1All0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYNFqP1All0). Fire has been started at the exit, and Molotov cocktails are being thrown at the building. Here is a longer video from another side: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw) Here is an account from The Guardian: > [@](#): > > “The aim is to completely clear Odessa [of pro-Russians],” said Dmitry Rogovsky, another activist from Right Sector whose hand had been injured during the fighting. “They are all paid Russian separatists.” [Ukraine clashes: dozens dead after Odessa building fire](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire) The number of confirmed deaths are now 41. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2924 "2014-05-02T23:28:35Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That is nonsense. I am not saying that at all. Whatever happened around February 18 it is a fact that a lot of police were themselves killed. There is little worse breakdown in law and order than when police defending the government are themselves victims of violence. There is ‘little worse breakdown in law and order’ than when people protesting the government are themselves attacked and killed. You seem bizarrely callous to that. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Its unreasonable to expect the anti-Maidan side to participate and respect an election when the previous election was overturned by Maidan violent protest and the anti-Maidan region’s political interests were forsaken anf denied. Now the pro-Maidans want their political foes to ignore all that and behave, as the pro-Maidans say not as the pro-Maidans do. Then no nation can ever survive a constitutional crisis. Bravo. Spite-based domestic policy belongs in the era of Edward III, not 2014. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, I see. You’re not really against killing and maiming, but only against it when one side is doing it. Got it. He’s fine with killing and maiming when the victims are the Muslim Brotherhood. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2925 "2014-05-02T23:29:12Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I see no links. What is it exactly you are arguing for anyway? That the arson and murder was justified? > > You have nothing. Airing the sentiment – possible wrong at this point – that Ukrainian (conscript, underpaid, badly equipped) soldiers are unlikely to start shooting at their own countrymen is not evidence of intent of anything at all. No. The “sentiment” is that he intends to place his soldiers behind civilians, in hope that the Ukrainian soldiers won’t shoot at them for fear of hitting the civilians. Which is a war crime. Again - would you like a link to that video again? > [@](#): > > Here is an account from The Guardian: > [Ukraine clashes: dozens dead after Odessa building fire](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire) Yes, that picture of “A pro-Russia activist aims a pistol at supporters of the Kiev government during clashes in the streets of Odessa.” in that article really helps your narrative doesn’t it? And “The clashes reportedly began after protesters gathering for a rally in support of a unified Ukraine were attacked by pro-Russia activists armed with clubs and air pistols.” ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2926 "2014-05-02T23:47:52Z")
In A.D. 2014, War was beginning. Turchynov: What happen? Yatsenyuk: Someone set up us the insurgents. Batkivshchyna: We get signal! Turchynov: What? Batkivshchyna: Main screen turn on. Turchynov: It’s you!! Putin: How are you gentlemen? Putin: All your Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk are belong to us. Putin: You are on the way to destruction. Turchynov: What you say!? Putin: You have no chance to survive drink more vodka. Putin: Ha ha ha… Batkivshchyna: President… Turchynov: Take off every “MIG”!! Turchynov: Move “MIG”. Turchynov: For great Ukrainian justice! ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2927 "2014-05-02T23:51:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. The “sentiment” is that he intends to place his soldiers behind civilians, in hope that the Ukrainian soldiers won’t shoot at them for fear of hitting the civilians. Which is a war crime. Again - would you like a link to that video again? Knock yourself out. Go ahead a link all you want. I do not share your view on it, and think you have to be willfully ignorant to come to your conclusion. In any case as I said it is irrelevant. It’s just words, and Ukrainian officials are on record with much worse. And it has nothing at all to do with the situation in Odessa so I don’t know why you bring it up other that to poison the well. Do you actually think Putin ordered Russian troops on the streets of Odessa today or in what way do you think it is relevant? > [@Terr](#): > > Yes, that picture of “A pro-Russia activist aims a pistol at supporters of the Kiev government during clashes in the streets of Odessa.” in that article really helps your narrative doesn’t it? Unlike you I have no narrative. No angle to grind. I have no conclusion and are still putting things together, and I’m certain that there violence done on both sides, and likely the extend of the fire was not intended – at least by the majority of the demonstrators. However the fire was started by the pro-Kiev side, and the deaths were of the pro-Russian kind. That much is clear. If it had been the other way round there would have been no end to the condemnations. I still don’t know what it is you are arguing for. That the arson and killings were justified? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2928 "2014-05-02T23:52:50Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > In A.D. 2014, War was beginning. > > Turchynov: What happen? > Yatsenyuk: Someone set up us the insurgents. > Batkivshchyna: We get signal! > Turchynov: What? > Batkivshchyna: Main screen turn on. > Turchynov: It’s you!! > Putin: How are you gentlemen? > Putin: All your Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk are belong to us. > Putin: You are on the way to destruction. > Turchynov: What you say!? > Putin: You have no chance to survive drink more vodka. > Putin: Ha ha ha… > Batkivshchyna: President… > Turchynov: Take off every “MIG”!! > Turchynov: Move “MIG”. > Turchynov: For great Ukrainian justice! I’m already going to hell, so I guess it’s OK that I laughed pretty hard at that! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2929 "2014-05-03T00:11:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Knock yourself out. Go ahead a link all you want. I do not share your view on it, and think you have to be willfully ignorant to come to your conclusion. It is not a “conclusion”. It is EXACTLY what he said. > [@](#): > > Do you actually think Putin ordered Russian troops on the streets of Odessa today or in what way do you think it is relevant? I am 100% sure there are Spetznaz troops among the “separatists”. You know that today two Ukrainian helicopters were shot down by the “separatists”, right? Tell me again how those pro-Russian “civilians” managed that? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2930 "2014-05-03T00:17:24Z")
By the way - Odessa - 62% Ukrainians. 29% Russians. Guess what happens when the 29% minority decides to override the majority’s wishes and secede? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2931 "2014-05-03T05:34:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > He’s fine with killing and maiming when the victims are the Muslim Brotherhood. I favor the least amount of chaos and killing. It appears in both situations, Egypt and Ukraine, you favor chaos and killing. In Egypt the military had the power of force needed to govern. In anti-Maidan Regions of Ukraine the interim government has lost the power of force because it has lost the police. In order to regain the ability to govern in the contested regions the pro-Maidan interim government will have to eliminate a lot of people. Is that what you want? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2932 "2014-05-03T06:22:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, I see. You’re not really against killing and maiming, but only against it when one side is doing it. Got it. Do you agree with the concept of negotiating in Ukraine? “sit down at the negotiating table and resolve these matters peacefully” > [@](#): > > “If there’s a single message we have as business leaders, then it’s this: sit down at the negotiating table and resolve these matters peacefully,” Eckhard Cordes, a former Daimler AG executive who now heads the Ostauschuss, German industry’s lobbying arm for Eastern Europe, told a recent conference in Berlin. **German Businesses Urge Halt on Sanctions Against Russia** Wall Street Journal Posted: 05/02/2014 10:47 am EDT Updated: 05/02/2014 10:59 am EDT [http://online.wsj.com/news/article\_email/SB10001424052702303948104579535983960826054-lMyQjAxMTA0MDAwMjEwNDIyWj](http://online.wsj.com/news/article_email/SB10001424052702303948104579535983960826054-lMyQjAxMTA0MDAwMjEwNDIyWj) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2933 "2014-05-03T18:36:28Z")
I agree with the concept that Russia should stop threatening Ukraine and stop fanning the flames of secession. Do you??? Well, we already you know you don’t since you cheerleaded the whole secessionist movement in Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2934 "2014-05-04T22:14:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I favor the least amount of chaos and killing. It appears in both situations, Egypt and Ukraine, you favor chaos and killing. In Egypt the military had the power of force needed to govern. In anti-Maidan Regions of Ukraine the interim government has lost the power of force because it has lost the police. In order to regain the ability to govern in the contested regions the pro-Maidan interim government will have to eliminate a lot of people. Is that what you want? Do you ever get tired of these absurd strawman posts? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2935 "2014-05-06T11:53:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok. Run by whom? Counted by whom? Monitored by whom? The militias? The Russians? > > This is odd…the military in Egypt “maintained its ability to govern” by [brutally suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt#2013_Egyptian_removal_of_Morsi), killing over 600 people, wounding another 4,000, and banning the MB and its associated political party. > > So why do you oppose Ukraine using similar tactics? You sure didn’t seem to mind it when the Egyptian military used them. When will you show me a region in Egypt where the military and police have lost control and cannot govern. You know, a city where the police have joined or support the anti-Maidan protest. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2936 "2014-05-06T12:12:25Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > When will you show me a region in Egypt where the military and police have lost control > and cannot govern. You know, a city where the police have joined or support the anti-Maidan protest. Well, the military couldn’t govern _any_ of Egypt until they overthrew the president, because the military isn’t endowed with the power to govern. Back to the point, though, the outcome in Egypt was violence to suppress the president’s political party. Why are you fine with that, but opposed to the use of violence against unelected militias occupying government buildings? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2937 "2014-05-06T13:02:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, the military couldn’t govern _any_ of Egypt until they overthrew the president, because the military isn’t endowed with the power to govern. > > Back to the point, though, the outcome in Egypt was violence to suppress the president’s political party. Why are you fine with that, but opposed to the use of violence against unelected militias occupying government buildings? Because in one case, the US government (more or less) favored one side and in the other case, it (more or less) favored the other side. That’s the only consistency you’re going to see. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2938 "2014-05-06T14:48:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Because in one case, the US government (more or less) favored one side and in the other case, it (more or less) favored the other side. That’s the only consistency you’re going to see. Evidently. Post 2932 simply makes no sense. He’s arguing that the situation in Egypt was different because the military and police hadn’t “lost control” (undeniably true, keeping control was what the coup was intended to do), so the violence there was justified. Meanwhile, in Ukraine, the government _has_ lost control, and he’s suggesting that violence to reassert control would be wrong. So, what I’ve learned from **NotfooledbyW** is that violence is only justified when it’s wanton and unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2939 "2014-05-06T16:44:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, the military couldn’t govern _any_ of Egypt until they overthrew the president, because the military isn’t endowed with the power to govern. That’s absurd. The military and police in Egypt did not cease ‘governing’ or lose the ability to maintain order in major cities and across the nation. In Ukraine the military is a mess and police have largely joined the anti-Maidan protests. Now the interim unelected pro-Maidan president is sending Ukraine speaking troops to restore pro-Maidan dominance in Russian speaking anti-Maidan regions. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2940 "2014-05-06T17:05:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That’s absurd. The military and police in Egypt did not cease ‘governing’ or lose the ability to maintain order in major cities and across the nation. In Ukraine the military is a mess and police have largely joined the anti-Maidan protests. Now the interim unelected pro-Maidan president is sending Ukraine speaking troops to restore pro-Maidan dominance in Russian speaking anti-Maidan regions. Which are part of the sovereign Ukrainian territory…right? You certainly do spin a lot in these threads. The ‘interim unelected pro-Maidan’ government is still the government and the ‘anti-Maidan regions’ are still part of the Ukraine and Ukrainian sovereign territory…at least until Russia finally pulls the trigger and snags that territory just like they did in the Crimea. At which time you will justify that as well using the same tactics you’ve used in both this and the Egypt debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=146) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=148)