# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 148
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2941 "2014-05-06T17:08:57Z")
**NFbW** : I don’t know why you’re claiming the Egyptian police are so great: basically everyone who lives there knows that the police service fell apart after 2011, and violent crime has skyrocketed. The only thing the Egyptian judiciary is really good at right now is sentencing huge number of people to death in kangaroo courts. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2942 "2014-05-06T17:19:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok. Run by whom? Counted by whom? Monitored by whom? The militias? The Russians? > > This is odd…the military in Egypt “maintained its ability to govern” by [brutally suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt#2013_Egyptian_removal_of_Morsi), killing over 600 people, wounding another 4,000, and banning the MB and its associated political party. > > So why do you oppose Ukraine using similar tactics? You sure didn’t seem to mind it when the Egyptian military used them. From Human Action’s link we see the differences in the coup in Egypt versus the coup in Kiev. The anti-Maidan protests are the result of the coup in Kiev that alienated Russian Speaking Ukrainuans. The coup in Egypt was supported by millions more than the million members of the MB. It was supported to increase stability not create chaos as the Maidan protest and coup created. From HA’s link: > [@](#): > > During the one year Morsi served as president serious public opposition developed within months. In late November 2012 Morsi ‘temporarily’ granted himself unlimited powers on the ground that he would “protect” the nation from the power structure left over from the Mubarak-era[51][52] and the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review of his acts. He also put a draft constitution to a referendum that opponents complained was “an Islamist coup.”[53] These issues[54] brought hundreds of thousands of protesters to the streets in the 2012 Egyptian protests.[55][56] > > Other complaints included the of prosecutions of journalists, the unleashing of pro-Brotherhood gangs on nonviolent demonstrators; the continuation of military trials; and new laws that permitted detention without judicial review for up to 30 days,[57] According to the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR), an independent organization, under Morsi “the Muslim Brotherhood is laying the foundations for a new police state by exceeding the Mubarak regime’s mechanisms to suppress civil society.”[32] Persecution of minorities by Islamic radicals was ignored by Morsi. Two cases being the April 2013 firing on a funeral of Coptic Christians who had themselves been killed in sectarian attacks in the days before, and the June 2013 lynching in public view of four Shiites by (Sunni) Islamists[32] > > By April 2013, according to the Associated Press, ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2943 "2014-05-06T22:13:18Z")
The EuroMaidan movement had hundreds of thousands of protesters too and Ukraine has half the total population of Egypt. So in your mind if the new government had immediately outlawed and arrested pro-Russian Ukrainians in the name of stability, that would have been totally cool? Because that seems to be what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2944 "2014-05-06T22:44:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The EuroMaidan movement had hundreds of thousands of protesters too and Ukraine has half the total population of Egypt. So in your mind if the new government had immediately outlawed and arrested pro-Russian Ukrainians in the name of stability, that would have been totally cool? Because that seems to be what you’re saying. Only if the US was against it, and if the pro-Russian Ukrainians were sentenced to death. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2945 "2014-05-06T23:20:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The EuroMaidan movement had hundreds of thousands of protesters too and Ukraine has half the total population of Egypt. So in your mind if the new government had immediately outlawed and arrested pro-Russian Ukrainians in the name of stability, that would have been totally cool? Because that seems to be what you’re saying. Try again. That is not at all what I’m saying. Cite what I’ve written if you want to make a counter argument. The anti-Maidan revolt was not about setting up religious rule over all Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2946 "2014-05-07T00:21:03Z")
No. The euromaidan revolt was over being stuck further under the thumb of totalitarian Russia. They could, under your rules of logic, be perfectly justified in arresting the pro-totalitarian supporters (ie the “anti-maidan” people) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2947 "2014-05-07T01:03:41Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No. The euromaidan revolt was over being stuck further under the thumb of totalitarian Russia. They could, under your rules of logic, be perfectly justified in arresting the pro-totalitarian supporters (ie the “anti-maidan” people) That is not my rule of logic. why don’t you pay attention to what I have written. I posted this today at 01:19 pm. “The anti-Maidan protests are the result of the coup in Kiev that alienated Russian Speaking Ukrainians.” In Egypt the anti-Morsi/MB protests led to the the overthrow of Morsi, the suspension of the Constitution, and the crackdown on the MB. The MB members were not concentrated in a specific region of Egypt. That is if you are not calling the terrorists in the Sinai as MB. There would be no anti-Maidan revolt in Ukraine had the overthrow of Yanukovich not been instigated and by the violent mob which was blessed by the pro-Maidan alliance of EU and US and nationalists in Ukraine. And if pro-maidan protests were about Russian totalitarianism then your EuroMaidan protesters and the nationalists in the government are more stupid than previously suspected. They are stupid for not concerning themselves with the substantial minority of Russian speaking Ukrainians You are the one supporting the interim government’s crackdown on what you call ‘pro-totalitarian’ Ukrainians. While the constitution is being violated by the pro-Maidan side, Let 'em have a referendum is my logic. Problem solved. Ukraine can have their romance with the EU free and clear of those Russian speaking Ukrainians for once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2948 "2014-05-07T01:15:16Z")
I have paid attention. I have noted through that attention that you are either a hypocrite or blind to the bullshit that is the Russian government. Islam=bad. Totalitarian Russia= awesome. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2949 "2014-05-07T02:30:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I have paid attention. I have noted through that attention that you are either a hypocrite or blind to the bullshit that is the Russian government. Islam=bad. Totalitarian Russia= awesome. You can’t make a case that Im a hypocrite and the low intellectual level of your argument is demonstrated by your inability to decide. And you apparently have no counter-argument to the point I made about pro-Maidan stupidity for bringing down an elected government through violence in order to break out from under Vladimir Putin’s powerful iron fisted totalitarian grip around the necks of 10 to 20 million Ukrainians who did not vote for Yanukovich. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2950 "2014-05-07T02:41:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And you apparently have no counter-argument to the point I made about pro-Maidan stupidity for bringing down an elected government through violence in order to break out from under Vladimir Putin’s powerful iron fisted totalitarian grip around the necks of 10 to 20 million Ukrainians who did not vote for Yanukovich. That argument was countered pages ago. You keep forgetting about the fucking shooting the protesters thingy by your ‘elected government’. You never have addressed that fact, just handwaved, danced, and then gotten into pedantic ridiculous arguments about silly semantic issues only you care about. And I suspect only you care about them because it’s your way of dancing away from the issues or debating in good faith. > [@](#): > > You can’t make a case that Im a hypocrite and the low intellectual level of your argument is demonstrated by your inability to decide. Low intellectual level of his argument, ehe? 😛 That’s a laugh and a half, and ironic off the scales. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2951 "2014-05-07T03:17:21Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I have paid attention. I have noted through that attention that you are either a hypocrite or blind to the bullshit that is the Russian government. Islam=bad. Totalitarian Russia= awesome. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You can’t make a case that Im a hypocrite and the low intellectual level of your argument is demonstrated by your inability to decide. Both of you back off and leave the personal comment for The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2952 "2014-05-07T03:21:36Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You can’t make a case that Im a hypocrite and the low intellectual level of your argument is demonstrated by your inability to decide. Oh I was just being polite. I already decided that you are both a hypocrite and blind. And I did indeed give you a counter argument. I likened pro-russian with pro-islamist and Egyptian crack down with a hypothetical pro-russian crackdown by Kiev. Thus explaining my hypocrite hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2953 "2014-05-07T03:23:07Z")
Sorry. Simulposted with the mod note. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2954 "2014-05-07T11:15:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No. The euromaidan revolt was over being stuck further under the thumb of totalitarian Russia. They could, under your rules of logic, be perfectly justified in arresting the pro-totalitarian supporters (ie the “anti-maidan” people) If that is what Euromaidan was about, did the protestors and the powers that be know that at least a quarter of all Ukraine’s populace, that dominated Crimea and the eastern industrial region wouid not agree or go along with the ‘blame Russia’ propaganda and hype that led to the downfall of the President they voted into office? And they see the move to the EU as throwing their economic interests and livelihood out the window in favor of submitting to the IMF and foreign influence as well. But being totalitarians the Russian-speaking Ukranians to you should not have a say even though the are the majority in the areas where they reside. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2955 "2014-05-07T11:29:34Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If that is what Euromaidan was about, did the protestors and the powers that be know that at least a quarter of all Ukraine’s populace, that dominated Crimea and the eastern industrial region wouid not agree or go along with the ‘blame Russia’ propaganda and hype that led to the downfall of the President they voted into office? Could you please re-write that into two or three understandable sentences? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > But being totalitarians the Russian-speaking Ukranians to you should not have a say even though the are the majority in the areas where they reside. No. Russian-speaking Ukrainians have a say. They vote in elections. They are represented in Parliament. Just like Texan Republicans, even though the US government is currently Democratic. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2956 "2014-05-07T12:27:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If that is what Euromaidan was about, did the protestors and the powers that be know that at least a quarter of all Ukraine’s populace, that dominated Crimea and the eastern industrial region wouid not agree or go along with the ‘blame Russia’ propaganda and hype that led to the downfall of the President they voted into office? And they see the move to the EU as throwing their economic interests and livelihood out the window in favor of submitting to the IMF and foreign influence as well. > > But being totalitarians the Russian-speaking Ukranians to you should not have a say even though the are the majority in the areas where they reside. You are okay with the Islamists that voted for Morsi being disenfranchised by the Egyptian military. You should be okay with the pro-totalitarians being disenfranchised in Ukraine. Sometimes you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette, no? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2957 "2014-05-07T12:41:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That’s absurd. The military and police in Egypt did not cease ‘governing’ or lose the ability to maintain order in major cities and across the nation. In Ukraine the military is a mess and police have largely joined the anti-Maidan protests. Now the interim unelected pro-Maidan president is sending Ukraine speaking troops to restore pro-Maidan dominance in Russian speaking anti-Maidan regions. Again: until the coup, Egypt was not governed by its military. It was governed by its elected government. Unelected military government began when the military removed the president and appointed an interim one. And, also again: if the military never lost control, why did they have to kill so many people? Evidently it wasn’t to restore order, but rather to eliminate political opponents. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > From Human Action’s link we see the differences in the coup in Egypt versus the coup in Kiev. The anti-Maidan protests are the result of the coup in Kiev that alienated Russian Speaking Ukrainuans. The coup in Egypt was supported by millions more than the million members of the MB. It was supported to increase stability not create chaos as the Maidan protest and coup created. > > From HA’s link: What differences? In both cased, an unpopular president was dogged by persistent, widespread protest against his rule. In Egypt, the military used this discontent as a pretext to remove a president that was hostile to the military’s absurd powers, and violently suppressed his political party. An interim president was named, and (unfree) elections to rubber-stamp al-Sisi as president were scheduled. In Ukraine, the president ordered protesters shot, then was (improperly) impeached by parliament. An interim government was established, and free elections for a new president were scheduled. Obviously, the situation in Egypt is a far worse breach of democratic principles and the rule of law than the one in Ukraine. In both cases, a president that millions voted for was removed from office before his term was complete. That said, while the impeachment of Yanukovich was improper, it is a power the parliament has, and the elected members of parliament did vote on it. No one elected the military that removed Morsi, and removing the president isn’t a power the military possesses. Further, in Ukraine no political parties were outlawed, there’s been much less violence, and elections were scheduled for three months after the impeachment, rather than ten months in the case of Egypt. Yet, you cheerlead the protesters and military in Egypt, and condemn the protesters in Ukraine. Is there any reason for this? Is it just more ethnic bigotry (that’s my hunch, at any rate), or do you go by whether you like the politics of the ousted president, or what? Because there’s clearly no coherent principles at work here. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2958 "2014-05-07T16:22:23Z")
So… Putin has called for the votes in eastern Ukraine to be postponed, and moved Russian troops away from the border. Is he backing down? Expecting the Ukrainian government to offer something in exchange? Trying to pretend that the inevitable referendum has nothing to do with him? God, Russia is hard to understand ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2959 "2014-05-07T20:28:05Z")
In case you were wondering, as a followup to Russia claiming that Crimea is theirs - it’s not just Crimea. The linked video is from a concert conducted in March 2014 in the Kremlin that was done for the government officials. [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ro_z2E6Qvo) - with Putin and Medvedev et al in attendance: Here is how the song ends (translation mine) Возвратит Россия Русский Севастополь, Станет снова русским полуостров Крым, Наш Босфор державный, наш Константинополь И святыня мира Иерусалим! Russia will get back its Russian Sevastopol And the Crimea peninsula will become Russian again Our great Bosphorus, our Constantinople, And the world’s sacred Jerusalem! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/2960 "2014-05-07T20:30:01Z")
Huh. He doesn’t _look_ Jewish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=147) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=149)