# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/281 "2014-03-03T03:26:10Z")
Well, one example is his own former Secretary of Defense had this to say. That only applies to Afghanistan. But other world leaders know the US is weary of war since 9/11. We just had a [major announcement 3 weeks ago about reducing our forces](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/us/army-to-cut-its-forces-by-80000-in-5-years.html?_r=0) to pre WWII levels. The US isn’t prepared or willing to to do anything about Russia’s invasion and Putin knows it. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/robert-gates-former-defense-secretary-offers-harsh-critique-of-obamas-leadership-in-duty/2014/01/07/6a6915b2-77cb-11e3-b1c5-739e63e9c9a7\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/robert-gates-former-defense-secretary-offers-harsh-critique-of-obamas-leadership-in-duty/2014/01/07/6a6915b2-77cb-11e3-b1c5-739e63e9c9a7_story.html) > [@](#): > > In a new memoir, former defense secretary Robert Gates unleashes harsh judgments about President Obama’s leadership and his commitment to the Afghanistan war, writing that by early 2010 he had concluded the president “doesn’t believe in his own strategy, and doesn’t consider the war to be his. For him, it’s all about getting out.” > > Leveling one of the more serious charges that a defense secretary could make against a commander in chief sending forces into combat, Gates asserts that Obama had more than doubts about the course he had charted in Afghanistan. The president was “skeptical if not outright convinced it would fail,” Gates writes in “Duty: Memoirs of a Secretary at War.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/282 "2014-03-03T03:29:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You are right, I am right. Kerry never did approve of the invasion of another country on trumped up charges. > > \*\*\*“I believe that the evidence is mounting that this administration made a decision to go to war and then fashioned a support structure for that decision.” \*\*\*-Jul 11, 2004 … RALEIGH, N.C John F. Kerry > > Kerry campaign says Bush misled US on Iraq - The Boston Globe > > [http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/07/11/kerry\_campaign\_says\_bush\_misled\_us\_on](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/07/11/kerry_campaign_says_bush_misled_us_on)… > So tell us when you think Kerry ‘approved’ it. > > . Before proceeding, I want to ask you if really want to go down that road and take this thread into a discussion about the Iraq War. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/283 "2014-03-03T03:33:43Z")
No that isn’t practical. Fighting a war with Russia in their own backyard is too costly. Napoleon and Hitler learned that lesson the hard way. The time for strong US leadership was before the invasion. Putin has been manipulating The Ukrainian for several years. He shut off their gas supply in the middle of the winter a few years ago. He had his own puppet leader in place up until two weeks ago. The US has done nothing and that emboldened Putin. Send in troops? Heck no. I don’t know what can be done now except strong economic sanctions. They will only work if supported by the entire UN. If all the major countries, including China, support sanctions then it might just work. Russia is still not fully recovered from the economic collapse of the Soviet Union. Sanctions would hurt. > [@OldOlds](#): > > Ace, is it your contention that we should be prepared for war with Russia over this? That we engage in a conflict on a scale not seen in generations? Because I don’t think any of the hawks really understands the scale of a war with Russia. I actually think the west would win a conventional conflict pretty easily, but not before unimaginable destruction and loss of life. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/284 "2014-03-03T03:34:11Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This is what happens when the US has a weak and ineffective leader. Putin knows Obama won’t do squat. Empty words from a shell of a President. What would a proper cowboy president do to show he’s just as craaaaaaazy as Putin? Should we have invaded and occupied Ukraine first? Why stop there? We should invade Europe! We can never let Putin get his hands on it! ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/285 "2014-03-03T03:45:48Z")
The leadership I was referring to was not direct military intervention. There are other options if we had a strong leader. Go to the UN and get a coalition of Nations to condemn Russia’s actions and develop appropriate economic sanctions. The biggest question is… Will the world passively sit by and watch Putin reassemble the old Soviet state? Will China support Russia’s current actions? The US can’t solve this alone. It’s going to take a coalition. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/286 "2014-03-03T03:47:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The leadership I was referring to was not direct military intervention. There are other options if we had a strong leader. Go to the UN and get a collation of Nations to condemn Russia’s actions and develop appropriate economic sanctions. Oh you mean what’s already being done. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/287 "2014-03-03T03:56:51Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > Military spending, top five, in Look at the stupid F-35 150-200 million dollar aircraft. A-10 costs, what, 20 million? Oh yea, let’s scrap the workhorse and buy the fancy air-to-air jet that we will hardly, if ever, use. While I am as big a fan of the Warthog as you will find, that worthy airframe isn’t well suited to modern engagements. It was a tank killer. It’s slow. It doesn’t have the CAS abilities, nor modern airframe, technology, weaponry, etc that the F-35 or some other future aircraft will possess as a joint strike air/ground fighter/bomber. Then there’s the question of UAV’s, which are also robbing the A-10 of it’s primary role. The A-10 does a job that modern attack helicopters can do almost equally well, and with very similar armament and at a cheaper cost than maintaining an aging fleet of thirty year old aircraft. I think what it really boils down to is that the A-10 is a single mission/purpose aircraft and the Air Force is trying, within it’s budget limitations, to have more multi-role warplanes that are smaller, faster, more advanced, make tighter turns on CAS runs, than the A-10 can manage. The cost overruns you mention for the F-35, well…that’s par for the course. Look how much more money the F-22 cost than it was supposed to and how many fewer of those the US took delivery on due to similar issues. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/288 "2014-03-03T04:12:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Dale Sams (Post 17155777) “You don’t just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext,” Kerry told CBS program Face the Nation." I found that ironic today. \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by John Mace (Post 17155809) Me, too. I’m surprised none of the interviewers called him on this. > > > > Sec Kerry, didnt you vote for the authorization to use military force in Iraq? Wasn’t that in 2002, that is “the 21st century”? “\<“Cite” > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > (-OldOlds 03-02-2014 03:44 PM) Thirded. I generally like Kerry, but I don’t know how he kept a straight face on that one. \<“Cite” > > > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW (Post 17156876) What’s wrong with a straight face when Kerry said what he said? He did not say it was justified when anybody else invaded a country on trumped up charges. \<“Cite” > > > > > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > > > > > (-OldOlds 03-02-2014 09:58 PM) Fair enough, but I don’t see a tacit admission of the US’ mistake in that statement, and I would not assume Kerry (or any other politician) to see the similarities. \<“Cite” I’ll commend you on the ‘fair enough’. That hardly ever happens here. And I do not see the hijack. I am sure Kerry knows the US government violated international law in 2003 and too many suffered too much needlessly for it. \*\*But it is not his job in today’s crisis to emphasize the negative. Russia is violating international law and everything should be done and I believe is being done to contain this crisis by our leaders like Kerry. \*\* Kerry’s statement is not inept, ironic or hypocritical. I don’t agree with calling this an invasion at this stage. It is a violation. Some diplomatic statements about Russian troops maintaining an orderly and non-aggressive profile should be kept in the forefront. I have not seen enough of that, but I don’t call the lack of it ‘inept’. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/289 "2014-03-03T04:19:30Z")
Someone enlighten me. While the Russian “invasion” seems to violate some pact from 1994 WRT the Ukraine, the Russians only appeared to want to possess Crimea in light of the upheaval and protests in Ukraine writ large. If I’m not mistaken, Crimea is home to actual Russian military bases, land and sea, and is by majority (I’ve read something along the lines of around 58%) pro-Russian. I get the outrage, but if the residents of Crimea, strategically placed as a warm water port and with access to the Mediterranean Sea, WANT to ally with Russia…well…where’s our leg to stand on with our outrage? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/290 "2014-03-03T04:29:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Dale Sams (Post 17155777) “You don’t just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext,” Kerry told CBS program Face the Nation." I found that ironic today. \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by John Mace (Post 17155809) Me, too. I’m surprised none of the interviewers called him on this. \<“Cite” Kerry did not say that the US or any other nation was ok to behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext. Do you think that Kerry said that? Why do you think he said that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/291 "2014-03-03T04:42:15Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Kerry did not say that the US or any other nation was ok to behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext. Do you think that Kerry said that? Why do you think he said that? You’re right. It was not ironic. it was masterful. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/292 "2014-03-03T04:52:21Z")
One of the lessons of Hitlerism is that there is nothing more dangerous for world peace than a superpower that has been quickly and stunningly humbled. So, while it was nice to see the Soviet Union crumble, if the price is a new gasoline fire of demagoguery, I’m not sure that’s a gain for world peace. The problem is we don’t really know how to treat humbled superpowers. Personally, I’m not opposed to them having few moral victories, if only to bleed off some of that frustration that would otherwise fester. But you have to be careful. You don’t want the superpower in question to get the wrong idea, and start feeling again like it can throw its weight about. That’s why the situation in Ukraine worries me like it does. Russia’s reaction here can hardly be called unexpected, but at the same time, it sets up a situation that could very easily slide into disaster. If the Ukrainians start shooting at the Russians – as they very well might – all bets are off. And it’s unnerving to read the following, from CNN: “Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday sharply denounced Russian President Vladimir Putin’s ‘stunning, willful’ actions in Crimea, characterizing the move as an ‘invasion’ and saying ‘all options are on the table’ as far as a U.S. response.” That’s a reckless and inflammatory thing to say. Nor does it help when the Ukrainian government starts talking about “acts of war” and calling up its reservists. It reminds me of World War I, where a relatively trivial event started all the powers blustering till they had backed themselves into a corner. Everyone should just shut up, to start with. Say something neutral, like “We’re assessing the situation and considering our options.” In the meantime, send the diplomats into overdrive. Try to contain the problem to Crimea. \*\*Sam Stone’\*\*s suggestions are useful, but they’re for next week. The immediate goal should be deescalation. That’s what I’m not seeing, and I’m worried like hell that the window for that is being slammed shut. (And here’s an ironic, if trivial, fact about Ukraine. You know what their national anthem is called? “Ukraine has not yet perished.” Ouch.) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/293 "2014-03-03T04:59:27Z")
> [@Sal\_Ammoniac](#): > > One of the lessons of Hitlerism is that there is nothing more dangerous for world peace than a superpower that has been quickly and stunningly humbled. So, while it was nice to see the Soviet Union crumble, if the price is a new gasoline fire of demagoguery, I’m not sure that’s a gain for world peace. The problem is we don’t really know how to treat humbled superpowers. Personally, I’m not opposed to them having few moral victories, if only to bleed off some of that frustration that would otherwise fester. But you have to be careful. You don’t want the superpower in question to get the wrong idea, and start feeling again like it can throw its weight about. > > That’s why the situation in Ukraine worries me like it does. Russia’s reaction here can hardly be called unexpected, but at the same time, it sets up a situation that could very easily slide into disaster. If the Ukrainians start shooting at the Russians – as they very well might – all bets are off. > > And it’s unnerving to read the following, from CNN: “Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday sharply denounced Russian President Vladimir Putin’s ‘stunning, willful’ actions in Crimea, characterizing the move as an ‘invasion’ and saying ‘all options are on the table’ as far as a U.S. response.” That’s a reckless and inflammatory thing to say. Nor does it help when the Ukrainian government starts talking about “acts of war” and calling up its reservists. It reminds me of World War I, where a relatively trivial event started all the powers blustering till they had backed themselves into a corner. > > Everyone should just shut up, to start with. Say something neutral, like “We’re assessing the situation and considering our options.” In the meantime, send the diplomats into overdrive. Try to contain the problem to Crimea. \*\*Sam Stone’\*\*s suggestions are useful, but they’re for next week. The immediate goal should be deescalation. That’s what I’m not seeing, and I’m worried like hell that the window for that is being slammed shut. > > (And here’s an ironic, if trivial, fact about Ukraine. You know what their national anthem is called? “Ukraine has not yet perished.” Ouch.) You’re touching on something that I think is part of the problem. Russia wants to believe that it is still a superpower but no longer is, aside from nukes, so they feel exerting their sovereignty over formerly “owned” new states/republics is something they can just arbitrarily just do, without fear of repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/294 "2014-03-03T05:03:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. It was not ironic. it was masterful. I don’t think it was masterful. It was proper. Why do you think it was masterful now that you admit it was not ironic? You are as inconsistent as ever on your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/295 "2014-03-03T05:17:47Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > You’re touching on something that I think is part of the problem. Russia wants to believe that it is still a superpower but no longer is, aside from nukes, so they feel exerting their sovereignty over formerly “owned” new states/republics is something they can just arbitrarily just do, without fear of repercussions. In some ways, Russia is the sick man of Europe (check their life expectancy, for example), but still – they have a heck of a lot of nukes. That fact alone means you don’t act rashly with regard to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/296 "2014-03-03T05:49:46Z")
> [@Sal\_Ammoniac](#): > > In some ways, Russia is the sick man of Europe (check their life expectancy, for example), but still – they have a heck of a lot of nukes. That fact alone means you don’t act rashly with regard to Russia. I agree. Their life expectancy is alarmingly low for a modernized nation…and yes, they have a ton of nukes…can’t help but wonder if their low life expectancy plays into some kind of fatalistic outlook which therefore makes them dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/297 "2014-03-03T05:53:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I don’t think it was masterful. It was proper. Why do you think it was masterful now that you admit it was not ironic? You are as inconsistent as ever on your reasoning. Jesus Fucking Christ, it was a joke. Did you really not know that? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/298 "2014-03-03T06:47:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus Fucking Christ, it was a joke. Did you really not know that? You can’t be inconsistent in your jokes! It’s against SDMB rules! ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/299 "2014-03-03T06:50:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus Fucking Christ, it was a joke. Did you really not know that? He can’t even figure out the quote function. Surely you don’t expect him to get ‘jokes’? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/300 "2014-03-03T07:20:59Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Secretary Kerry on Meet The Press: > > “You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext.” 😃 Just the most hilarious thing I’ve read in weeks! Putin’s 90 minute ‘fuck you’ to the indignant Obama must also make classic reading but I guess we’ll have to wait quite a while for that … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=16)